ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Moderator: somehiker

Post Reply
Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt »

treasurehntr wrote: Jim,
Am I tipping over into the Stone Crosses thread ?
treasurehntr ........
Maybe just a little TH, but I believe there is a valid connection between the stone maps and Rojas' Silver Bell.

Jim
roward
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:42 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by roward »

Hi, Jim,
Just a couple of questions pertaining to this fascinating topic. What was the reaction of the folks at the church when shown the stone crosses and hearts? Had they been aware of their existence, or was this a complete revelation to them? Did they indicate any familiarity with the symbols, etc.? Also, if fr. Rojas was involved in mining and was recalled to Spain due to the circumstances described, surely there are records to that effect in the Spanish archives. If these records are catalogued, it shouldn't be terribly hard for a researcher to find the appropriate ones. Also, is it possible that the church's interest in the subject or possible location of the silver bell is more from a historical or spiritual perspective than from a monetary one?
Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt »

Hi Bob,

Good to hear from you again. Hope you had a Merry Christmas and are preparing for a very Happy New Year!

Write-1 was the only one present when he showed the photos to the Priest, so he would be the best one to ask about that. What I remember most clearly about the incident, was Write-1 telling me that upon looking at the photos, the Priest's first words were - "I know why you are here" and he (Write-1) was promptly escorted out of the church, where it was not allowed to speak in that "tongue". I have no idea what the actual meaning of that is, but we can all easily assume the general meaning.

re: "Also, if fr. Rojas was involved in mining and was recalled to Spain due to the circumstances described, surely there are records to that effect in the Spanish archives".

No need for searching the Spanish Archives for records of this event. It is clearly documented in history as the Jesuit Expulsion of 1776.

Write-1 may be able/willing to add some additional information, but I wouldn't press him too hard for it. This is an ongoing situation that is still developing, and a long ways from any kind of conclusion.

Jim

roward
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:42 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by roward »

Hi, Jim,
Yeah, I'm still hangin' in there. Hoping for a better 2010. What I meant in connection with the archives was not the Spanish expulsion, per se, but that Rohas was recalled specifically because it was believed that he was siphoning gold from the mines. That would definitely establish the fact of Jesuits being involved in mining and help corroborate the story. I'm sure Write-1 is following this thread, so I'll leave it up to him if he wants to comment on my previous post. A safe and Happy New Year to you and yours, also.
Bob
Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt »

Bob,

re:"That would definitely establish the fact of Jesuits being involved in mining and help corroborate the story".

That has been subject of many debates for a couple hundred years or more. There are many people that are firmly convinced, that the Jesuits were involved in mining, and just as many convinced that they were not. It is not a question that I want to try to solve on this website. Some call it "Discrimination" and some call it a violation of their "Freedom of Speech", but I strive to make these discussions a gathering place for people that HAVE ALREADY MADE UP THEIR MINDS, that the Jesuits were involved in mining... that the stone maps are related to those activities... and that the LDM does exist and could possibly be related also.

There is no other place on the Internet where "Believers" can come together and discuss these things without, constantly being annoyed by the "Non-Believers".

As I have repeated over and over in these discussions. I have no desire to "convert" anyone, and I am not even going to try. It only leads to arguments, and hard feelings on both sides, with very few if any, of the participants changing their minds about what they already believe.

If you are interested in reading, or participating in one of those kind of debates. There is a good one going on at:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/ ... 9.300.html

It is (for the most part) an unmoderated "Free-For-All", that a lot can be learned from, if you don't mind sifting through all the unrelated (Off Topic) information to find it.

Jim

roward
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:42 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by roward »

Ok, Jim, I'll check that out. i don't have any personal axe to grind either way-my point of view was that, if the historical records confirm it as fact, then it must be accepted as fact. Kind of like those who continue to insist there was no holocaust. The proof is undeniable, but that's another can of worms, isn't it?
Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt »

Will you do me a favor Bob?

After you finish reading that discussion on Treasurenet, (All four pages). Will you come back here and tell me if you can answer your own question?

ie:What I meant in connection with the archives was not the Spanish expulsion, per se, but that Rohas was recalled specifically because it was believed that he was siphoning gold from the mines.

Or ... At least let me know what your conclusion is after reading it?
Just your conclusion now... If you want to participate in the debate, please do it over there. :lol:

Jim
JoeyW
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by JoeyW »

Jim Hatt wrote:Will you do me a favor Bob?

After you finish reading that discussion on Treasurenet, (All four pages). Will you come back here and tell me if you can answer your own question?

ie:What I meant in connection with the archives was not the Spanish expulsion, per se, but that Rohas was recalled specifically because it was believed that he was siphoning gold from the mines.

Or ... At least let me know what your conclusion is after reading it?
Just your conclusion now... If you want to participate in the debate, please do it over there. :lol:

Jim

Jim, I would say they were mining, judging by what is posted in that discussion.
It is a good link. thanks for posting it.

Joey
Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt »

I agree with you Joey. There are good arguments on both sides, but I think the ones in favor of the Jesuits mining, far outweigh the opposite opinions.

Jim
marks231
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:29 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by marks231 »

Rudo Ensayo

A Description of Sonora and Arizona in 1764

Juan Nentvig, S.J.
________________________________________
Roxas (Rojas), Carlos, S.J.
________________________________________
. Once at the pass, we must
travel six more leagues to Bacoachi, dependent mission of Arizpe where the renowned gold placers are located. These placers have produced nuggets of two, three, and four pounds22 but are not so productive at present because the prospectors23 have been frightened away by the death-dealing Apaches.

From Bacoachi we will follow the course of the Sonora River to another dependent mission of Arizpe: Chinapa, eight leagues to the southwest, leaving the real de minas of Basochuca five leagues away to our left and the real of Bacanuchi four leagues away to our right. The Cananea mines are eight leagues to the northwest. Traveling in a southwesterly direction, we will pass the cattle ranch of Guepavérachi which is owned by gente de razón, and three leagues beyond we will reach the main mission of Arizpe which is located on the right bank of the Sonora River at 31 degrees, 30 minutes latitude and 264 degrees, 55 minutes longitude. Its missionary is the Visitor-General Father Carlos de Roxas, with whose gracious permission we may rest a couple of days, and being in a more populated area than that through which we have been traveling, we can move about with less apprehension.
West of Arizpe six or seven leagues is Santa Rosalía, a site that once had very rich gold mines.
Mines were discovered and worked by Spaniards in 1660. Being a real, it was attended by a diocesan minister, but because of the great distance the minister had to travel, the curate of San Miguel de Horcasitas requested that its spiritual needs be attended to by the Jesuits of Batuc. The importance of this real is shown by the fact that it had two justices of the peace and was the residence of the lieutenant governor. It was visited on January 8, 1686, by mining inspector D. Gabriel de Isturiz, at which time it had 142 families, 388 people.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Do you believe these accounts are real or have they been reworked?
Post Reply