ROJAS' SILVER BELL

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action14
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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by action14 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:39 pm

gollum wrote:
Jim Hatt wrote:Mike,

I'm really glad to see you took an interest in this topic. While you are wrestling with the details. Keep in mind that this story originated with a Priest at a Jesuit Parish in Phoenix. A priest that appears to have no problem openly talking about Jesuits being involved in mining!

Fr. Rojas was a Jesuit Priest... wasn't he?

Jim
Jim,

I'll tell you something. When I started researching the subject of Jesuit Mining. I had Father Polzer SJ on one side (NO MINING). Father Polzer was the most renorned historian of the Jesuits in the New World with Bolton, Treutline, and Father EJ Burrus SJ. None of them mention mining by Jesuits.

I had several treasure hunting acquaintances on the other side of the fence. I needed some more scholarly input. I contacted the two most renowned living scholars of Jesuits in the New World. One teaches at Loyola Marymount University and the other at Georgetown University. These are the two premiere Jesuit Universities in the United States.

Funny thing was, neither of the two of them had any issues with Jesuit Mining. HAHAHA I was astounded. When I bounced my theory of Jesuit Temporal Coadjutors doing all the mining stuff to keep the actual Fathers at arms length, this was his reply:

"Coadjutors are laymen (not clerics) who are members of the Society, just as novices and scholastics (not ordained members who are studying for the priesthood). The "temporal coadjutors" at times made up as much as 1/3 of the membership of the Society.....they were often men with highly developmed professional training---architects, goldsmiths, carpenters, etc.--who did not have the "book learning" required for priesthood in the Society. They ran the Jesuit farms,oversaw building projects...and could very well have overseen mining projects.............."

There was more, but it didn't have anything to do with the subject. Notice the part that states coadjutors made up (at times) one third of the Society's Membership. Maybe someone can recall the names of some of the Jesuit Temporal Coadjutors that were arrested with the Fathers in 1767?

I have the lists and already know the answer. If you don't know, make a guess! HAHAHA

Best-Mike
Carlos de Rojas signs document "Ortiz Parrilla and the Jesuit Propose to Deport the Seris,1750"

Och, Joseph (Padre)
Nentuig, Juan (Padre)
Loaiza, Francisco (Padre)
Saenz, Bartolome (Padre)
Pfefferkorn, Ignacio (Padre)
Vivas, Luis (Padre)
Villarroya (Padre)
Trujillo, Joaquin (Padre)

action14
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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by action14 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:53 pm

If you read the "Ortiz Parrilla and the Jesuit Propose to Deport the Seris,1750" you will find Jesuit mining operations in New Spain.
Charles III becomes the King of Spain and the Spanish Indies from 1759 to 1788. As king of Spain Charles III tried to rescue his empire from decay through far-reaching reforms such as weakening the Church and its monasteries. He questioned the loyalty of these Jesuits to the Spanish monarchy.
In January 1762, he issued a so-called Pragmatic Sanction, which limited considerably the privileges of the religious orders in Spain. King Charles didnt want the Jesuits to have mining operations because he feared it would fund the overthrow of his rule.

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by cubfan64 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:31 pm

action14 wrote:If you read the "Ortiz Parrilla and the Jesuit Propose to Deport the Seris,1750" you will find Jesuit mining operations in New Spain.
Charles III becomes the King of Spain and the Spanish Indies from 1759 to 1788. As king of Spain Charles III tried to rescue his empire from decay through far-reaching reforms such as weakening the Church and its monasteries. He questioned the loyalty of these Jesuits to the Spanish monarchy.
In January 1762, he issued a so-called Pragmatic Sanction, which limited considerably the privileges of the religious orders in Spain. King Charles didnt want the Jesuits to have mining operations because he feared it would fund the overthrow of his rule.
I've read that document in the past and don't see anything in it that suggests the Jesuits were involved in mining. The only mining reference I note is where they it mentions that settlers have mines and other things they need to travel back and forth to in order to take care of themselves.

Am I missing something?

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Hooch » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:26 am

Jim Hatt wrote:Statue if Rojas standing above his "Bell".

Image
gollum wrote:
It seems that Father Carlos de Roxas SJ was OFFICIALLY the Missionary father of the Mission at Arizpe from 1748 until 1767.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, during that time, he was declared a Visitor General twice (once from 1748-1755 a second time from 1763-1764). This made his transformation from a simple Missionary Father to pretty high on the food chain.

I hesitate to form any conclusions. But I have been working on the theory for a long time, that the "stone maps" (including Bilbrey's Crosses and the Latin Heart) were made in 1751, and updated for some reason in 1767. I started working on this theory, long before I ever heard of Fr. Rojas. Other than the time periods matching so closely. I cannot make any connection between Rojas, and the stone maps, but it sure is something to wonder about.

Jim
Amazes me how many people went to Xavier on here as kids lol I knew from the second I saw that picture

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:30 pm

And now they probably know more about the men and the statues....SH.

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