ROJAS' SILVER BELL

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Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:35 pm

No problem SH,

Most of us have had the experience where we begin to talk about something, and then decide that we wished we had not. :mrgreen:

I will not be pressuring you for more information about your map. Just make sure your shades are pulled all the way down, any time you pull it out to look at it. :lol:

Always glad to hear that someone has crossed over from the other side, no matter what their reason for doing so.

Jim

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:22 am

Jim:
"Most of us have had the experience where we begin to talk about something, and then decide that we wished we had not. "

Maybe that's why those two Fathers happened to be out for a little hike,in full costume.............with supervision.

Doing penitence....???

Better than the old application of thorny branches kind. : :roll: shock:

Regards:
SH.

Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:13 am

SH,

It IS curious isn't it?

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:08 pm

Jim:
It's certainly another appetizer to nibble on.
If the story is true,it would mean that there was a sizable and possibly year round mining operation within the mountains,as stated,to the south east of Phoenix.For Fr.Rojas(Father Visitor of pimeria alta),to have commissioned the casting of such a bell,he must have deemed that the importance of the mining and the labourers warranted such a commitment.It suggests that a Priest was present,perhaps on a rotating basis, to conduct the services and that the camps/mines were clustered in relative proximity to the intended location of the bell.Such a bell would,of course,serve duty as well for warning of attack by hostiles or summon help in cases of cave-ins etc.
There are a few other reasons for considering the story as plausible.Might get into that later when I have more time.
Regards:SH.

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by gollum » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:54 pm

I hate to jump in after seven pages of posts, but there are some inconsistencies that need to be addressed.

I do love the picture of the two Jesuits looking (I imagine) longingly at the vast Superstition Mountains. HAHAHA Their matching footwear looks like a pair of Rockports I have. Very comfortable walking shoes. The one on the right looks kind of heavyset to be of much use in anything but easy to travel trails. Funny thing though, he is not the one with the Camelbak.

Okay, back on the ranch. I was prepared to dismiss this story at hand. You see, Father Carlos Roxas (Rojas) SJ was the Missionary Father for the Arizpe (Arispe) Mission. He would never have been assigned to oversee ANYTHING in the North of Pimeria Alta. One thing you have to keep in mind is that Pimeria Alta is a name construct of secular Spanish. While the Jesuits knew the Secular Boundaries of those regions, they had a different land area breakdown. They were called Rectorates. Pimeria Alta was in the Rectorate of "Nuestra Senora de los Dolores". Arizpe was not even in that Rectorate! Arizpe is in the Rectorate of "Nuestro Padre de San Xavier." There is no way a regular Mission Father would be in charge of ANYTHING in another Rectorate. Father Roxas was the Missionary Father at Arizpe until the Jesuit Expulsion of 25 June, 1767.

How do we know that? Easy; we have the ship's manifest of the "Princess Ulrrica". A Swedish Cargo Ship that transported twenty Jesuits under arrest to Spain that left the Port of Vera Cruz on 10 November 1768.

SO..........that pretty much shoots the story as told in the butt with a load of rock salt. HAHAHA

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut.........I dug a little deeper and found a HUGE GLARING inconsistency:

While simple Father Carlos Roxas SJ was shipped off in chains on 10 November 1768 from Vera Cruz on the Princess Ulrrica................................

A FATHER RECTOR CARLOS ROXAS SJ WAS SHIPPED FROM SAN BLAS TO SPAIN ON THE PACKET BOAT PRINCIPE ON 18 MAY 1768!

So, we have TWO Father Carlos Roxas SJs that were in the same general area at the same time. Simple enough for me to check out with the registries of all the Jesuit Missionaries, RIGHT? WRONG!

When I tried to cross reference the two Father Roxasses in the Jesuit Registry, they both came back to the same guy! The simple Father Roxas SJ of Arizpe! WHO IS THIS OTHER FATHER RECTOR ROXAS?

They can't be one in the same person. We have two different ships leaving six months apart from different ports carrying the same man. I can find nothing about a father Rector Carlos Roxas SJ. Now, a simple Mission Father from one Rectorate would not be put in charge of anything in a Rectorate different than his own, but a Father Rector was a couple of steps up the food chain, and could very well have been more easily shifted from one spot to another. I will explain:

Jesuits never wanted to transfer Missionary Fathers. It took months and months for a Father to become proficient enough in the Indian dialects local to his mission to give Mass, Baptisms, and last Rights. Fathers Rectors were assigned to the Cabaceras of their Rectorates and could move about freely within that Rectorate.

So, first, we have no idea which Rectorate this Father Rectorate Roxas was assigned to. Even if we did know, he would not have been required to learn the native tongues and so moving him to the North Apacheria would have been much easier than a Mission Father.

I think this story may have some teeth, but will require a lot more research.

Best-Mike

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by oroblanco » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:32 pm

First, my congrats on becoming moderator, this should be an interesting sub-forum!

Next, this seeming paradox is possible because San Blas is on the Pacific, so being "shipped to Spain" from there would mean being transported down the coast to another port, then across the land to an Atlantic port, <like Vera Cruz> and this took time so may well explain why it took until November.

Funny coincidence that San Blas is the very same port used by the Franciscans on their great adventure to missionize northern California, including famous Father Juniperro Serra himself.
Roy

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by gollum » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:57 pm

Good catch Roy,

I was thinking of Matamoros for some reason. I found the manifest from Guaymas to San Blas, and then from Veracruz to Spain. I guess six months would account for the land march from San Blas to Veracruz.

We still have a difference in titles. We have the Father Rojas and the Father Rector Rojas. The Father Rojas of Arizpe was not a Father Rector. He was a simple Mission Father for many years at the same place.

Mike

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by gollum » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:09 pm

A little deeper looking seems like the NPS (National Park Service) believes they were the same guy:

Personal Information:
Surname: Rojas Given Name: Carlos Sex: M
Place of Birth: Mexico Date of Birth: 11/04/1702 Order: Jesuit
Place of Death: Puerto de Santa María, Cádiz, España
Date of Death: 01/03/1773
Cause of Death:
Race or Tribe: Español Criollo
Residence: Arizpe
Title: Misionero (IHS); Shipped out of the Port of Guaymas on the Príncipe during the Jesuit Expulsion; Shipped out of Veracruz on the Princesa Ulrrica
Place of Service: Arizpe
Burial Place:
Translation: (Spanish)

Was the FATHER RECTOR a simple mistake? Maybe maybe not. I will keep looking. Based on current knowledge, a Mission Father from one Rectorate would not be in charge of anything in a different Rectorate. Right now, that puts the story in a bit of a pickle.

Now, the story as told might have happened in the Arizpe Area, and not anywhere near Tucson.

Mike

Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:51 pm

Mike,

I'm really glad to see you took an interest in this topic. While you are wrestling with the details. Keep in mind that this story originated with a Priest at a Jesuit Parish in Phoenix. A priest that appears to have no problem openly talking about Jesuits being involved in mining!

Fr. Rojas was a Jesuit Priest... wasn't he?

Jim

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by gollum » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

Okay,

The story is on a little better footing again.

It seems that Father Carlos de Roxas SJ was OFFICIALLY the Missionary father of the Mission at Arizpe from 1748 until 1767.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, during that time, he was declared a Visitor General twice (once from 1748-1755 a second time from 1763-1764). This made his transformation from a simple Missionary Father to pretty high on the food chain.

There is a letter he wrote to Governor Calderon that "Suggests establishment of missions near the Gila and Colorado rivers, due to the number of Indians located there." This tells me that he was in the area of the story.

Looks like we are accruing some circumstantial evidence that the man was in a position to have the job described in the story, and from at least one letter he had spent some time in the Gila, Colorado, Salt Rivers area.

Things are getting interesting again-Mike

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