ROJAS' SILVER BELL

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by gollum » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:07 pm

Jim Hatt wrote:Mike,

I'm really glad to see you took an interest in this topic. While you are wrestling with the details. Keep in mind that this story originated with a Priest at a Jesuit Parish in Phoenix. A priest that appears to have no problem openly talking about Jesuits being involved in mining!

Fr. Rojas was a Jesuit Priest... wasn't he?

Jim
Jim,

I'll tell you something. When I started researching the subject of Jesuit Mining. I had Father Polzer SJ on one side (NO MINING). Father Polzer was the most renorned historian of the Jesuits in the New World with Bolton, Treutline, and Father EJ Burrus SJ. None of them mention mining by Jesuits.

I had several treasure hunting acquaintances on the other side of the fence. I needed some more scholarly input. I contacted the two most renowned living scholars of Jesuits in the New World. One teaches at Loyola Marymount University and the other at Georgetown University. These are the two premiere Jesuit Universities in the United States.

Funny thing was, neither of the two of them had any issues with Jesuit Mining. HAHAHA I was astounded. When I bounced my theory of Jesuit Temporal Coadjutors doing all the mining stuff to keep the actual Fathers at arms length, this was his reply:

"Coadjutors are laymen (not clerics) who are members of the Society, just as novices and scholastics (not ordained members who are studying for the priesthood). The "temporal coadjutors" at times made up as much as 1/3 of the membership of the Society.....they were often men with highly developmed professional training---architects, goldsmiths, carpenters, etc.--who did not have the "book learning" required for priesthood in the Society. They ran the Jesuit farms,oversaw building projects...and could very well have overseen mining projects.............."

There was more, but it didn't have anything to do with the subject. Notice the part that states coadjutors made up (at times) one third of the Society's Membership. Maybe someone can recall the names of some of the Jesuit Temporal Coadjutors that were arrested with the Fathers in 1767?

I have the lists and already know the answer. If you don't know, make a guess! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by gollum » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:12 pm

Jim Hatt wrote:Mike,

Fr. Rojas was a Jesuit Priest... wasn't he?

Jim
Jim,

Whenever you see the "SJ" behind the name of any Priest that meas he is a Jesuit. The SJ stands for Society of Jesus. And yes, Father Roxas J was indeed Jesuit.

Best-Mike

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:26 am

Mike and Jim:
I have also come across a spelling of "Rohas".
Along with a number of symbols,the father's name as "Rojas" is carved into the stone facade at Arispe.I believe that Fr.Rojas/Roxas was the subject of much interest by the spanish authorities.

Thanks Mike for adding your knowledge to the forum.

Regards:SH.
Last edited by somehiker on Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:02 am

Statue if Rojas standing above his "Bell".

Image
gollum wrote:
It seems that Father Carlos de Roxas SJ was OFFICIALLY the Missionary father of the Mission at Arizpe from 1748 until 1767.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, during that time, he was declared a Visitor General twice (once from 1748-1755 a second time from 1763-1764). This made his transformation from a simple Missionary Father to pretty high on the food chain.
I hesitate to form any conclusions. But I have been working on the theory for a long time, that the "stone maps" (including Bilbrey's Crosses and the Latin Heart) were made in 1751, and updated for some reason in 1767. I started working on this theory, long before I ever heard of Fr. Rojas. Other than the time periods matching so closely. I cannot make any connection between Rojas, and the stone maps, but it sure is something to wonder about.

Jim

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by gollum » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:14 am

SH,

The RoHas version would likely have come from a source other than Spanish. They would have used either/both the X and J versions as the two letters were often interchanged.

Jim,

We both know someone who has done a LOT of research into the Stone Maps and believes they were not found by Travis Tumlinson in 1949, but stolen from under a Priest's Bed at the Arizpe Mission, and made their way to Tumlinson's Father (Peg Leg Tumlinson) who lived near the Mexican Border in Texas. So remember, Tumlinson found the Stone Maps on his way home to Oregon after visiting his father in Texas. Very interesting!

If that is true, then our Father Roxas would have most definitely known about them as long as they were made before 1767.

Best-Mike

Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:40 am

Mike,

Yes, I know that story well. The biggest problem I have with it, is the fact that the Latin Heart was found in the same area where Tumlinson claimed to have found the stone maps, but by a different person, (Charlie Miller) and years after the stone maps were found. Bill Hidden knew Charlie Miller and the story about the Latin Heart well. Doyle Harnish was partners with Hidden for several years before he died, and got the story of the Latin Heart directly from him.

I have a taped interview with Doyle, that fleshes out the story nicely, and is 99% consistent with the story Al Reser told me about Bill Hidden and the Latin Heart. The fact that the cavity in the "Heart Map" is cut deep enough to hold both the original heart insert, and the Latin Heart, is compelling evidence, that the Latin Heart is part of the stone map set.

The big "Glitch" in the story about the stone maps coming from the Mission in Mexico, is how did the Latin Heart become separated from the set, and just happen to be found in the same area where Tumlinson said he found the maps?

Maybe there will be an answer in Azmula's article that is supposed to be coming out in the 2010 SMHS Journal this year. We'll just have to wait and see.

Jim

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:59 am

Thanks for posting the photo,Jim.
The mission that he carries in his left hand is similar in architecture to Nuestra Señora de la Asunción de Arizpe,but has a peaked roof as well as a second tower.Planned additions perhaps?.Or another mission altogether?

Mike:
The "Rohas" spelling,as I recollect,came from a Lutheran researcher/translator of a latin document.Therefore not likely Spanish.
If Tumlinson received the stones from his father,how could "Peg Leg" have known that the stones applied to the Superstitions?What then,may he have known about the stones?
Is it possible that Tumlinson's father had uncovered some information pertaining to that particular location near Queen Creek?

Regards:SH.

Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:17 am

somehiker wrote: Mike:

Is it possible that Tumlinson's father had uncovered some information pertaining to that particular location near Queen Creek?

Regards:SH.
SH,

Therein lies another unanswered question. Did Travis Tumlinson just happen to find the first map, while climbing to the top of a hill to see if he could get a view of Weaver's Needle (or relieve himself as some versions suggest) or did he go to that area, to specifically look for something, that he had been told about?

For me personally, I have no vested interest in where the stone maps actually came from, other than my published theory about how they came to rest near Florence Jct. Theories are flexible and can be changed as new evidence comes to light.

What matters most to me, is where do the stone maps lead you to, and what is to be found there? If someone ever answers that question, the question of how Tumlinson came into possession of the maps in the first place, won't even matter any more!

That is why I have focused all my efforts, into making the maps work out in the mountains, and letting everyone else work on tracing their history.

No matter which version of the story a person chooses to accept. He must either accept one, or make up his mind that it does not matter, and move on, or the maps will never be solved.

The maps themselves are just the "Messenger". It really does not matter what route the messenger took to get to Tumlinson. The challenge (and potential reward) is in understanding the "Message" inscribed on them.

"Busca El Coazon"

Jim

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by gollum » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:15 am

I agree with what Jim had posted earlier on another thread. To the effect that once you decide for yourself if you believe them to be authentic, then the rest is just fluff.

That was how I came to think the Stone Maps were authentic. On the old LDM Forums, I got involved in a Stone Maps discussion about authenticity. I then spent a few months researching only the history of the Stone Maps from 1949 until present. I found a lot of good info, but the one thing that I zeroed in on was what do I think of Bob Corbin's word?

In all my research (because I didn't know the man personally), I could find absolutely no reason not to trust his word. From there, I had to go with his story about being shown the Stone Maps by those FBI Agents who told him that in the opinion of the FBI the Stone Maps were AT LEAST 100 years old (in 1964). From there, the only way they could have been fakes is if they were originally made to be part of the Reavis Land Fraud Case (which was much later). If not part of that fiasco, they were absolutely authentic. If they were made for that deal, then why weren't they used and mentioned at the time? I decided that in my opinion, they were authentic.

Best-Mike

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Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:12 pm

Jim and Mike:
I can understand and appreciate your shared opinions regarding the relative importance of how the stones came to be in the public domain.For myself,however,the well known expression "The Devil is in the Details" is one which I keep in mind.

Regards:SH

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