ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Moderator: somehiker

Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:11 pm

somehiker wrote:
"The Devil is in the Details"

Regards:SH
I understand that concept SH,

I sat on the fence about what I believed about the authenticity of the maps for about two years believing "The Devil could be in the Details", before deciding that I believed, they were authentic maps to something of value.

I know other people who came to the opposite conclusion, the first time they looked at them, and saw misspelled words on them.

As far as the "Details" are concerned... We will more than likely never really know them. There are too many conflicting stories already in circulation, which the sources of, are already dead and gone. There are no living witnesses left to cross examine. It all comes down to who each person considers to be the most reliable source.

Unless of course... You understand what the maps themselves testify to.

Jim

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:41 pm

Now you've got me smilin :)
The stones themselves are understandable as is the reason for their existence.
It's the devils that I don't know that are keeping me wondering.

Regards:SH

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:21 pm

Couple of them details:

If one was to compare the styles of robe worn by the three...Kino,St.Ignatius and Rojas,in the photograph taken at the church in Phoenix,you may notice that the only one wearing a robe with the same loose sleeves as the Stone Priest,is Rojas.
The bell at the base of Rojas is also "unfinished" in that the casting sprues at the top are still attached.

The name "Roxas/Rojas" may also appear on the Fish/Peralta map,center left,which could suggest that the Peralta's had some knowledge of Rojas' connection with their own area of interest.

Image

Regards:Somehiker

Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:54 pm

Wayne,

Rojas was one of the Jesuits involved with the expulsion in 1776. If what you are thinking is correct. That would make the "Peralta/Fish" map much older than than I had previously imagined.

I noticed that your copy of the map has 1848 on the bottom of it.

I do not see that in the photo of original map that I got from Al Reser.

Image

There are many hand drawn variations of this map in circulation. Maybe someone added the 1848 somewhere along the way?

Best,

Jim

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:42 pm

Jim:

It could be that the 1848 was added sometime after the stone maps appeared in Life.
Other versions may have variations of wording due to varying descriptions of the places shown on the map by each person making a copy.The wording on this version seemed to Fernando to be the oldest,but easiest to translate.He has now gone to work for R.I.M. (Blackberry).

Beginning to think that the P family was given the gift (a church land grant?) of the mines and mineral deposits in exchange for Miguel and Pedro's pledge to ascertain that a "Certain Area" remained undisturbed.Might be an explanation for the two names and their orientation on the Horse Map.

Regards:Wayne

Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:59 pm

Wayne,

There almost HAS to be a "Church Grant" (or a "Land Grant" from the king of Spain, based on previous Jesuit activities in the Superstition Mountains), connecting the Jesuits and the Peraltas and... The Stone Maps and the Peralta/Fish map somehow.

The similarities in the locations shown on the Stone Maps, and the Peralta/Fish map are just too good to be coincidental.

Best,

Jim

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:35 am

And too many as well to be merely coincidental,Jim.
Wouldn't have made much sense for the Peraltas to have sought a grant on a patch of barren rocks either.

Regards:SH.

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:30 am

BTW.
The "Peralta Map" and "1848" are written in a different hand than what is original.
Al Reser's map was made by a mapmaker trained in the calligraphy of the day,using a quill pen for the lettering.The rest are copies.
Calligraphy of exactly the same style can be found on the border of the Perficio document.
The other lettering on the Perficio was made by a different hand,and instrument.
Both maps are done on long fibre bark or cotton fabricated paper.

Regards:Wayne

Jim Hatt

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by Jim Hatt » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:33 am

Wayne,

Her is the story about how Frank L. Fish obtained the map, as told by Lake Erie Schaefer in her book. Dead men Do tell Lies published in Dec. 1968.

Frank L. Fish did have his own book titled Buried treasure and Lost Mines, but I am not sure if there is anything in it pertaining to the “Peralta” map. He may have obtained it after his book was written. I believe I have a copy of his book in storage. If I can find it, I will check it and see if his version of the story about obtaining the map is in it.


Image


Image

Image


Image

Fish's story (As told by Schaefer anyway) says the 1848 was visible on the map when he received it, but I'll be darned if I can make it out in the photo of the original map.


Best,

Jim

somehiker
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: ROJAS' SILVER BELL

Post by somehiker » Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:31 am

Jim:
This version,I believe,is a copy of one of four original copies that were shared by those that signed their names to it and dated their signatures.Some of the wording on this version has been changed as well.Any errors in translations of the original would,of course lead one astray IMO.

Regards:Wayne

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... P.jpg.html

Post Reply