Native American history within the Superstitions discussion

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cubfan64
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Native American history within the Superstitions discussion

Post by cubfan64 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:34 pm

Legends, stories, facts, etc...

There have been a couple conversations started about Native American (specifically Apache) history within the Superstition Mountains. It seems as though it might deserve it's own thread here. I'm not sure if I can move the posts which were started elsewhere to here, but if I can I will.

If not however, please feel free to carry on whatever discussions, stories, etc... that suit the subject heading.

Personally I look forward to hearing what some of you folks can pass along - it's a fascinating area and history that for the most part is unknown to most people.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:57 pm

I appreciate this link, it's a very intresting subject. As a mixed blood (Mohawk/Dutch/Apache) I have a little insight to Indian ways & love to chat. I use the term 'Indian' tongue-in-cheek since I find it hilarious... Columbus only discovered what is now the Dominican Republic & Haiti on his way to India so calling Native Americans he never even saw Indians cracks me up. Since there is very little documentation by Indians (or anyone else) little of what I can share will be backed up by other writings so please consider it my opinions (it will be accurate to the best of my abilities). I also have the privledge of being Will Rices Great-Grandson & the fact he existed is @ least documented in Sharlot hall Museum in Prescott, AZ.
Looking forward to chatting & will try to check in every day or two.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by cubfan64 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:23 am

I'm not at all versed in Apache history, so I apologize in advance if I make errors in some of my questions or comments. Please correct me if/where I make mistakes.

Can you elaborate on how the Apache people used the Superstition Mountains from your understanding? For example, did they at any time truly inhabit the mountains, or were they more of a place to hunt, gather, "worship" (for lack of a better word) and/or retreat to in time of need?

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:59 pm

The only bad question is the one not asked. If something is too personal I'll simply say so, everything else will be to the best of my knowledge. I think you said it pretty well. The Sup's were, & to a degree still are, a place to hunt & worship. There are more fertile places to gather but they were a great place to hide out when needed. The traditional Apache believe they entered Earth from underground in the Sup's & there is a cave that is considered sacred to some traditional ones. Ceremonies are still held there on occasion. I won't tell the exact location out of respect to those who feel it sacred but it's a ways north of Weavers Needle. The Apaches were nomadic & really didn't 'inhabit' anywhere for any amount of time but wandered from place to place often staying @ a favored place but really didn't settle anywhere. They did consider the Sup's "their" land. Occaisionally they gathered free gold & nuggets in he Sup's after they learned how much it could buy from White man. It was considered a very bad thing to dig or mine but loose gold could be used if needed. To hoard gold, or anything else, was/is considered a lowlife activity. Apaches, like most Indians, are very family oriented and to take more than your share of anything is disgusting behaviour.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by somehiker » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:04 am

Hi injunbro:
How exactly,is the Apache "first woman" origin tied to the "entrance to the underworld" beliefs ?
There seems to be a place out there,more to the east of Weavers than it is to the north, where the entrance area exhibits artifacts which are indicative of someone's belief in an "underworld",but these are not not identifiable as Apache.I have not been deep into this cave as yet,Histoplasmosis being a major concern of mine.

Regards:SH.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:48 pm

Sorry for the slow reply, I've been way too busy lately. First Woman was one of the first to enter todays world from the underworld. I'm a Christian but still remember a lot of the old legends & beliefs. I presume the artifacts you are referring to are petroglyphs? There were other groups of Native Americans in the Sup's before the Apaches and Apaches weren't rock whittlers. The belief in the underworld is a fairly common one in almost every race, some refer to 'cave men', 'cro-magnon', etc. At any rate the cave you refer to was very likely used by one group or another of Indians. Taking caution is always a good idea - there are a few ways traps were set to either infect, kill, or hurt those who messed w/ things they considered sacred. A lot of diggings were booby trapped by Indians to thin out the miners while avoiding outright battles. So people consider these Spanish tricks to cut down the competition but a lot were set by Indians. No to the next obvious question, there is no secret way to avoid these traps.

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:08 pm

cubfan64 wrote:I'm not at all versed in Apache history, so I apologize in advance if I make errors in some of my questions or comments. Please correct me if/where I make mistakes.

Can you elaborate on how the Apache people used the Superstition Mountains from your understanding? For example, did they at any time truly inhabit the mountains, or were they more of a place to hunt, gather, "worship" (for lack of a better word) and/or retreat to in time of need?
Paul,

Tom Kollenborn has some close personal friends among the Apache elders at San Carlos. We have discussed the presence of the Apache in the Superstitions many times. While he may not want to pass along the comments from the elders in a public forum, a face to face conversation with his friends may be another story.

The Tonto Apache were in the northeastern part of the range, if I remember correctly but, as injunbro has mentioned, they were nomadic. They followed the food sources, both animal and plant. In doing that, the groups were quite small, consisting of family members, to a large degree, for their makeup.

Much of the Superstition range was not suitable for providing sustenance for large numbers of people in close proximity.

Been awhile since I have read that history, but that's the gist of what I remember.

You have started a very worthwhile and interesting topic.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by cubfan64 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:03 pm

From the little I've read so far, I tend to agree that the odds of any large (relatively speaking of course) Apache presence in the Superstitions was most likely nonexistent.

Whether smaller groups lived within the NW, SW or central areas would be pure speculation for me as most people really don't want to or can't share any REAL authentic information to substantiate that claim.

I know that at some period of time in the past, the central Superstition Mountains probably offered substantially more water sources and areas for animals (both domestic and wild) to forage. They obviously (to me at least) provide areas for defensive protection, so in my mind at least I can see small groups of Apache using the area.

At this time, the best course of action I can take to learn more is to simply read whatever I can find - it from what I've discovered so far, those who are in a position to know and/or share more that may not be in print aren't talking - it's not a topic that I've found people comfortable talking about even 1 on 1 at places like the Rendezvous.

I didn't expect to hear much by starting this thread here either, but I decided to give it a shot anyways just in case.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:10 pm

I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for but even 50 years ago most Apaches never stayed anywhere very long before wandering on to other areas. What was considered their lands was what they could defend from others, not where they lived on a permanent basis. Geronimo & several others hid weapons & food caches in the SW Sup's. To the best of my knowledge most of these have been found & cleaned out, there are a few that still have some sacks of dried up blue corn.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by somehiker » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:56 pm

Injunbro:

"Geronimo & several others hid weapons & food caches in the SW Sup's."

In what time frame did Geronimo make these caches?
Why would he have chosen the SW Sup's,rather than another area closer to his home turf?
Seems a bit out of the way.

Regards:Somehiker

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