Wayne,

I almost reread Mike Burns manuscript before I wrote that post......should have. My copy of his manuscript was a birthday present from Bob Corbin, who went to Sharlot Hall and copied every page.

That's a very good catch for you. You must have a very good memory.

Tom Kollenborn is where I usually go when I have questions about the history of the Supe's. That being said, he will be the first to tell you his work contains mistakes.
None of us are infallible.

I have read the article you referenced a number of times since he revised it in 1999.

He also wrote this in 1981, "The Pimas themselves never lived in the Superstitions and did not emerge as a cultural group until the decline of the Hohokam around 1400 A.D........As to the Superstitions;, there is no anthropological data which places any Indian groups in this area until long after the birth of Christ."

We may have never sat down and discussed that period of the range's history. It sounds like something I need to do.

In "First Inhabitants of Arizona and the Southwest" by Byron Cummings, he states that "Father Kino found the area occupied by numerous tribes of Indians, both nomadic and sedentary" He characterizes the Pima as being "sedentary". Since Father Kino did not venture beyond the Gila, it follows that such "sedentary" tribes would not be farther north than that river.

For me, the above suggests that the Pima did not occupy the land north of the Gila, until well after the Spanish had come to Southern Arizona. The Pima's "conversion" to Christianity was mostly superficial, which the Jesuits, Franciscans and Spanish soon learned.

I can see where they may have run farther than the surrounding mountains, and ended up on the rivers around the Superstitions, and other locals in Arizona, to escape the iron grip of the Spanish and the smothering embrace of the priests.

Not sure the killing of one Pima would create a place of sacredness for the tribe, at least not one of major importance. It would not have been done out of respect for the Yavapai lives that were lost there, as the survivors would have been killed as well, left up to them.

On the other hand, that's just my uninformed opinion, and does not conform to many who are better educated on the subject.

Take care,

Joe

Wish I had something to add to the discussion, but the little I know about Native American history of the Southwest only fits in a thimble - just wanted you to know I am reading all this and find it very interesting - please continue.

The one thing I believe at this point that perhaps you guys can correct me on is that there really has been little or no published research or concerted effort to learn more about the inhabitants of the Superstitions - whether they resided there for any length of time or only utilized what we know as the wilderness area for seasonal foraging.

Joe:

As I have already stated,my interest in the Pima is rather limited.
In part because the Pima are only one of the present day tribes who are the descendants of those who inhabited the SW US and Mexico for over two millenia.The ongoing work of archaeologists in particular,using recent advances in scientific dating and methodology,has led to many revisions in what was previously believed and published by by those who went before in the study of both archaic and historical cultures and tribes.

And one more time:

"I can only suggest you read my post again.
I did not claim that the Pima (as a tribe) LIVED in the Sups.,only that they gathered it's resources."

And nothing I have said conflicts in any way with Tom's opinion quoted here:

"The Pimas themselves never lived in the Superstitions and did not emerge as a cultural group until the decline of the Hohokam around 1400 A.D........As to the Superstitions;, there is no anthropological data which places any Indian groups in this area until long after the birth of Christ."

Which shows that You,I,and Tom are all of the same opinion as it applies to the Piima Tribe.
We also seem to be in agreement as to the Pima being a "sedentary" culture,as I first mentioned here:

"The Pima lived through several drought cycles and times of famine,both before and after the arrival of the Europeans. In such times sedentary groups often adapt,not by pulling up stakes,but rather by expanding the areas from which they forage their food, etc. "

I doubt you will disagree that the Hohokam were also primarily a sedentary culture.

Tom has always been an excellent source of valuable information regarding the history of the Superstitions and surrounding area.His membership and contributions to DUSA are the words of a true professional historian, and it would be very unusual for me to find anything questionable in his writings.

Although he may,from time to time see the need to revise his work,and once wrote a short explanation of his personal motivation and of how some of his sources may not provide the final answer.....

http://superstitionmountaintomkollenbor ... results=50

"Saturday, November 14, 2009
Thank you, my friends...
I would like to thank all of my readers for their support. I enjoy writing about the legends and stories of the Superstition Mountains. Some of these stories are centuries old and have been handed down from family to family. Some of the tales come from the files of various periodicals. I try to find accurate sources, but like all stories about lost gold mines and other interesting events one can never be absolutely certain about their sources. I try to sort fact from the enormous amount of fiction and lies we find about the infamous Dutchman's lost mine and other stories about the region. I started writing columns in 1976 and I still continue to research the material I use, looking for as much authentic material as possible. Researching periodicals does produce some very uncertain sources with little or no documentation. Always remember these are stories that are often parts of a legend. Take care and enjoy............Tom Kollenborn "

I don't see any difference in his latest revision of "Wilderness Treasure",about four months ago,with the quoted portion I posted in my last comment.

His latest revision is as follows:

http://superstitionmountaintomkollenbor ... asure.html

[ Garden Valley was farmed by a small group of Hohokams probably some one thousand years ago when the climatic conditions were more favorable. This large valley flat has more than 200 acres of arable land when there is a sufficient supply of water. Today mesquite and chain cholla have become the climax vegetation in the area because the cattle growers over-grazed the area for the past century.

A ruin was located in the center of the valley. This structure probably housed twenty-five to thirty individuals, while small caves on the fringe of the valley contained other families. Prior to 1930, the valley floor was literally covered with stone tools used by the ancient inhabitants who cultivated this special parcel of land.
Late in November of 1931, the Arizona Republican cosponsored an archaeological expedition lead by the City of Phoenix archaeologist Odds Halseth. The expedition undertook selective collecting of surface artifacts and documented their location before removal. Halseth, Harvey Mott and other members of the archaeological expedition made a cursory inventory of surface artifacts they did not collect. Several hundred lithics were inventoried on the surface, recorded, and left in place.Today, none of these lithics remain on the floor of Garden Valley. They all have been carried off by collectors during the past sixty-nine years. My father and I use to walk through Garden Valley on our way to Second Water. Sometimes, my father would take a side trip and show me the matates and manos. They were still quite numerous in the late 1940’s if you looked around closely for them. The lithics of Garden Valley were primarily indicative of the Hohokam culture.

There is considerable evidence to suggest the Pimas gathered and foraged in the area long before 1500 A.D. The Pimas gathered the seeds of many plants common the Superstition Mountain region including the cacti fruit and the seedpods of various legumes such as the Mesquite, Ironwood, Palo Verde and Acacia.

The Apaches and Yavapais probably moved into these rugged mountains around 1500 A.D. The Apaches and Yavapais both constructed temporary rancherias or farmsteads in locations such as Garden Valley, Frog Tanks, Dismal Valley, Rock Tanks, Reavis Valley, along Tortilla Creek and many of the tributaries draining into the Salt River.]

As I also mentioned in my previous post,Tom has also mentioned Pima within the mountains in other "Kollenborn Chronicles" publications.

http://superstitionmountaintomkollenbor ... chive.html

[During the period 1880- 1910 the entire area was considered a part of the Superstition Mountain region. Little is known about the region before 1880 until about ten years ago when an old Mexican family journal was found in Phoenix. This journal revealed some very interesting information about the Salt River Valley and what the Mexican community did to survive.

Many families raised goats as subsistence animals. They herded these animals around the fringe areas of the developing irrigated fields in early Salt River Valley. Some families moved on eastward along the Salt River. Two Gonzales boys and two Peralta boys were herding goats along the Salt River near a camped group of Pima warriors that hunted Apaches in the Superstition Mountains. They told the boys there were no more Apaches in a lush valley just west of the mighty bluffed mountain. The boys started herding their goats toward the valley.]

(a lush valley just west of the mighty bluffed mountain.)....sounds like Garden Valley, actually east of the main mountain ??

In a story about he Buckhorn-Boulder mine written in 2008 Tom said:

[Palmer moved to Roosevelt in 1903. Almost immediately after arriving he became involved in his first encounter with the Superstition Mountains.
A group of Pima Indians refused to work on the road gang building the Mesa-Roosevelt Road because an old chief was afraid one of his wives was going to die.The two wives had been in a vicious fight and one had a severe hatchet wound in her skull. Palmer was sent to Government Well to see what he could do, some 37 miles from Roosevelt Dam. Palmer was able to save the lives of the two women and in doing so he became a friend of the old Pima chief.
Chief Ash Nash Ni told Palmer he was guarding the secrets of Ain-We-Gophon (Superstition Mountain) and further explained that his wives would soon give birth to a son for him to pass the secrets of the mountain on to. The chief also told Palmer that his sons would guard the secrets of Ain-We-Gophon and would forever make peace with the Pima Earth Gods. Palmer wasn’t sure there was any truth in what he heard, but he became intrigued with the mountain for the rest of
his life.]


http://superstitionmountaintomkollenbor ... chive.html

[Actual construction of the Tonto Wagon Road, as it was known in the beginning, began on August 29, 1903, with two hundred Apache laborers working just below the dam site on the Salt River. Another work camp was established on November 11, 1903, at Government Well, some twentyfive miles from Mesa, employing some 200 Pima laborers. The Tonto Wagon Road was completed on September 3, 1905, at a cost of $551,000. The road was sixty-two miles long, running from the Tonto Dam site to the Mesa rail head. It was reported more than a million and half pounds of freight moved over the road in its first month of operation. By 1912, the year of Arizona statehood, Roosevelt Dam was completed and supplying water and hydroelectric power to the Salt River Valley and the mines at Globe.]

http://www.desertusa.net/mb3/viewtopic. ... w=previous

[In chapter 12 of Ely’s book, starting on page 151. Mr. Ely tells a story about a Pima Indian named Pahsaum that took Jim Bark and another man, to a place on the Apache trail just before getting to Fish Creek Hill, where they were going to make a camp, and resume on foot the next morning to a mine that Pahsaum had agreed to show him. The place where they made camp was what is known today as the entrance to the old road to Tortilla Ranch. Jim Bark insulted the Indian by telling him that he knew that country, and there was no mine back in there. That ended that trip.]

Regards:Wayne

What I recall from my college days is that habitation sites must contain evidence which is much more than burials and petroglyphs.
To my knowledge, no habitation sites have been identified within the Superstition Mountains, with one possible exception, Grass Valley.
Alan

Hi Paul:

I've either heard or read recently that the Wilderness Act has restricted or prevented further archaeological excavation within the Sups. I don't think the W/A would apply to any location outside of designated wilderness areas,though. J.Scott Wood would know more,I'm sure.
Aside from that,I think that budget restrictions,manpower and the sheer number of sites which have been mapped but not studied are factors which place a limit on what we have been able to understand about those who did inhabit the area.Only places like the Tonto National Monument cliff dwellings,the Rogers Canyon Cliff Dwelling,the extensive ruins (ranging from pit house dwellings to Pyramidal Platform Structures) in the Tonto Basin,Circle Stone,and Garden Valley seem to have received much attention. I think the ruins in the Angel Basin to Reavis Ranch area should be studied further,but maybe there's just not enough "WOW" potential there. We both know of other places, such as the terraced gardens and their attendant ruins,which may or may not have been studied as well. Not to mention the hundreds of rock shelters and caves throughout the range.......



Alan:

There have been something over 2,500 individual archaeological site identified and catalogued within the Superstition Wilderness boundary alone.The majority of these are Salado and Hohokam sites,with many identified as dwellings with both trash mounds and heavy concentrations of pottery shards and lithics present.. They are spread all over the range,from Whitlow Dam to Saguaro Lake and from Apache Junction to Roosevelt Lake.There are Yavapai sites as well,both cave shelters and open seasonal campsites which are well known to many people who have spent time out there.

Regards:Wayne

Facinating
My arcaeology is a bit outdated, 1988, do you know if these inhabitants built any rock wall structures?
I should clarify, I mean any walled strutures within the Mountain itself, encompassing La Barge Canyon, Needle Canyon environs.
Alan

Alan:

Many of the rock-wall structures are leftovers from the "cattle ranching" or mining days,often constructed by Mexican labourers. Most are simple stock pens or wind shelters,but sometimes it's hard to tell which a particular structure might be. Just google some of the ruins which I mentioned in my previous post. There are many photos of typical ruins made with rock which should give you an idea of what to look for when you are out exploring. The "Great Wall" of Whitlow Canyon is kind of interesting, as far as "rock walls" go.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

My own interest in the Pima had nothing really to do with the Superstitions, rather their involvement with the Jesuits in Sonora.

Trying to tie any of the local tribes into Spanish mines or treasure is where things will get a little thin.

The title of this topic is, "Native American history within the Superstitions discussion". Where would you like to see the discussion go from here? The major tribe to talk about, in the correct era for Spanish/Dutchman mines, would be the Yavapai and to a somewhat lesser degree, the Tonto Apache.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

It's not really my call, or yours, as to where this discussion may lead.



In my opinion, this topic should include any "Legends, stories, facts, etc..." which may relate to the history of Native Americans in the Sups.
I don't think it was Paul's intention to limit the scope of the topic to the Yavapai and Tonto Apache,or to the Spanish/Dutchman time frame. If I am mistaken, he can let us know.

I had assumed your quote of my post, originally from a different thread in another topic entirely, and your invitation to reply, indicated that you wished to discuss the history of Pima's in the Superstitions.

Of course, I could have been wrong in that assumption.



It's just a suggestion, but if you do prefer a discussion limited to the history of the Yavapai and Tonto Apache relationship with the Spanish/Lost Dutchman era, perhaps you could initiate such a thread yourself.
I,for one,would be happy to contribute whatever I could to such a conversation. I would also be willing, as moderator, to ensure that the discourse remains both civil and on topic.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

Actually, I don't really care which direction the topic goes. As long as it's about Native Americans I will be happy as a pig in mud.

I thought I was just following the thread where it was flowing, but I can see where I may have been trying to focus it in a certain direction. It was not intentional, just the natural inclination to want to go with what you know.

Please continue,

Joe