Native American history within the Superstitions discussion

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Injunbro
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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:21 pm

somehiker wrote:Injunbro:

Am I correct in the assumption that to have done so would have been "bad medicine" ?
What were their beliefs (Yavapai/Apache) in the origins of these ruins,and the people who left them behind ?

Regards:SH.
"Bad Medicine" or bad luck would be a good way to put it. I'm not superstiious but still find it very weird to take anything someone long dead left behind... what would I do w/ it anyway? I certainly don't need it.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:35 pm

Injunbro,
I don't believe there is any one place of emergence for the Apache people, as a whole. What seems to be the norm, is that each band or group has there own story.

Since we are talking about the Superstition Mountains here, the only historically known Apache to live in the mountains, as a tribe, were the Tonto. They, basically, were composed of the Northern and Southern Tonto. Those two groups were further divided into six sub-groups....possibly seven.

In addition, the Tonto who were living alongside the Yavapai intermarried with them and both sides melded into a single tribe, in many cases. When that happens, many of the legends and beliefs also became mixed. The Yavapai believe that the place of emergence was Montezuma Wells.

The Tonto believed they came from a place far to the north of where they lived prior to reservation life. That would seem to eliminate the Superstitions as their place of emergence. Others believe a mountain in the San Juan's of Colorado is that place.

I don't believe there is any Apache interest or ceremonies in the Superstitions as a sacred place, even though all places on the earth are considered sacred to them. This in spite of the stories in Helen Corbin's book, provided by someone who turned out to be a wanna-be Apache. In that respect, I believe he is no different than the, so called, Quero Apache.

Just my unqualified opinions based on the small amount of research I have done over the years.

Take care,

Joe[/quote]

You're allowed to believe anything you want... so are the traditional folks I know. They are mostly White Mountain & Yavapais & some believe the entrance cave is 'the one". Having visited there I know someone lived there very long ago & the artifacts there look Apache to me. I won't show the location to anyone out of respect to them. They do sometimes still conduct ceramonies there although traditional believers get fewer every year. As I said I'm Christian but respect their beliefs. I have been to more than one type of ceramony by relatives trying to convert me back to the old ways.
Other places? Of course. Do any 2 groups of any race agree totally on anything?
Wannabees? Sure. The Queros aren't the only ones. Aren't there some wannabees in every group, club, church, etc.? Most have a dab of something real & make up the rest to feed their ego... often w/ good (if mislead) intent.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:42 pm

Injunbro:

Speaking of feathers.

Could I assume that an agave stalk laid across an opening in the rocks,through which I would have to pass in order to reach the top of a bluff,to be something left behind by an Apache ?
It had 4 feathers....looked like quail to me...tied to the center with a clump of coloured wool yarn.

Regards:SH.[/quote]

It could be something like a prayer stick left by a traditional minded quail hunter but more likely something left by a person w/ some knowledge as a sign to a friend coming later. 4 is a sacred number w/ ceramonial meanings (mostly 4 directions) but the quail feathers wouldn't mean a warning like eagle or hawk feathers would... or it could be just some kid playing indian.

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:29 pm

Injunbro,

"It could be something like a prayer stick left by a traditional minded quail hunter but more likely something left by a person w/ some knowledge as a sign to a friend coming later. 4 is a sacred number w/ ceramonial meanings (mostly 4 directions) but the quail feathers wouldn't mean a warning like eagle or hawk feathers would... or it could be just some kid playing indian."

What if it was someone wanting to place a fake ceremonial type of artifact on the trail to make it look Apache as a warning to someone like Wayne, who has some knowledge of such things, away from the top of that bluff?

If that is what happened, what should be done with the artifact?

Thanks for your reply.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by somehiker » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:14 pm

I didn't take it to be a warning.Had no idea whether it was Apache/Yavapai or not.
I wouldn't know an indian sign from anyone else's,either.That's why I asked.
It looked pretty new.I just shimmied under it and continued up to the top.
Kid or trickster...maybe...but a heluva climb to get to,and way off trail N/E of Tortilla Well,above Fish Creek.Some nice caves and ruins in the area as well.I think E.Connatser wrote something about them.
More likely just somebody's hiking staff,was about the right length.
With all the fake stuff supposedly out there,I'm surprised I haven't found more than a couple of things that even made me curious.
Perhaps I'm just not looking in the right places,or hard enough.Then again,I don't buy into these stories about shadowy figures,tricksters, and fake everything.
Most of it sounds misleading to me,so I generally ignore it.One of the reasons my library is so sparse.

In contrast,you sound like an honest broker to me Injunbro,so I'll keep asking any questions which I think you may have an unbiased answer for.

All slick rock up top,but only a single old tree up there anyway.Nothing man made or unusual,either.
Nice views,though.

Last shot is from above the Tortilla road.

Regards:SH.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by cubfan64 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:24 am

silent hunter wrote:Joe
Why not read from first hand accounts?? You always pay so much $ for your book. History is free!....maybe not read as well as one of your books.....enough said...Check out the Mormon history. True accounts that may help you in your hunt for the knowledge of the Great Red man. You can find attempts at taking a Census including the Superstition Mountain Range. Guess What? There is even a map of the road (Trail if you may) from Fort Mcdowell to Florence Juntion? Good Luck
Kurt Painter
Kurt,

Can you point me to where I can read these first hand accounts? Every account after a first hand account equals it at best, but more than likely is tainted at least a little bit by the next author's views. I'm always open to reading firsthand accounts.

Thanks,

Paul

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:59 pm

silent hunter wrote:Joe
Why not read from first hand accounts?? You always pay so much $ for your book. History is free!....maybe not read as well as one of your books.....enough said...Check out the Mormon history. True accounts that may help you in your hunt for the knowledge of the Great Red man. You can find attempts at taking a Census including the Superstition Mountain Range. Guess What? There is even a map of the road (Trail if you may) from Fort Mcdowell to Florence Juntion? Good Luck


Kurt Painter
________________________

Kurt,

Not having your intimate knowledge of the Supe's, many must rely on books for everything they learn.

I don't know how you have come to the conclusion that I pay a lot of money for my books. Some are expensive, but others are relatively inexpensive. Many of the books in my library are sent to me as gifts from the authors. (No cost)

On the other hand, I have read, and heard, many original stories. When you say that's what I should do, can you give me some examples of "first person" historical accounts that can be read? Perhaps I have read some of them.

Many thanks for your suggestions,

Joe

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:42 pm

i-tsari-tsu-i wrote: What if it was someone wanting to place a fake ceremonial type of artifact on the trail to make it look Apache as a warning to someone like Wayne, who has some knowledge of such things, away from the top of that bluff?

If that is what happened, what should be done with the artifact?

Thanks for your reply.

Take care,

Joe
What should be done w/ it? Nothing. It's really not the way a warning sign is placed (most people wouldn't recognize one anyway), it's only a fake & not a real artifact anyway & some kid may be back to look for it. Ignore it, it's not hurting anyone. As far as warnings signs go, everyone should always be cautious in the Sup's... there are a few remote places where certain peoples wierd tendancies come out & the Sup's seem to be one.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:59 pm

Somehiker: Nice pictures. Thanks for your kind words. I won't mislead you on purpose... what could I possibly gain by that anyway? I do reserve the right to simply refuse to answer questions about things that would offend others beliefs but will simply say so instead of giving bad information. As I said in a reply to Joe, caution is always a good thing in remote areas, especially the Sup's where too many wackos seem to have taken wierdness pills. 'Wild' Indians are the last ones I'd worry about. Indians may keep you busy talking to keep you away from something else & are masters @ polite deception. Most people after an encounter w/ an Indian think they just ran into a friendly guy w/ brown skin & don't realize he was simply making sure they weren't up to anything... I pulled good natured buffoon duty a few times in my teen years.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:10 pm

I guess I should point out the things that really get the attention of traditionalists are owl feathers or claws. They are symbols of witchcraft. Yes, there are still Indians practicing witchcraft (mostly in Navajo country). Whether you believe in it or not those are really weird people and it's not a good idea to hang around w/ them.

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