Native American history within the Superstitions discussion

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by somehiker » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:47 pm

I've only seen or heard folks I would say were indian out there on three occasions.I suspect some of us spend more time in the mountains than all but a few contemporary Yavapai/Apache.My own favourite times are spring and fall though,and the temps usually range in the mid 80's to mid 90's,so that may be a factor.I don't run into too many people anyway,and most days there doesn't seem to be anyone at all present.
I've seen the occasional owl,late in the evening,but they have all been wearing their own feathers.
The only experience I've had,of the "who did that ?" kind,was a small pile of ice slabs,about a quarter inch thick, that I found in my return path down Peters Canyon.They were just starting to melt when I noticed them,and although it was getting quite cold,there was no source nearby that I could see,nor had I seen anyone ahead of me in the canyon.I'm still mystified about that one,since the pieces were so neatly stacked.I had a film camera with me,without a flash though and it was getting dark fast,but I never thought to take a photo anyway,thinking I might see the perp somewhere ahead,when I hit the mouth of the canyon.

Regards:SH.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Injunbro » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:22 pm

Hmmm... don't know of any way to 'witch' you w/ a stack of ice... maybe someone is just giving you 'the cold shoulder' :D

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by somehiker » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:11 pm

Maybe a message to "chill out"... :roll:

Forgot to add:

Found a handfull of plastic cowboys and indians in Peter's Cave when I was there.
The kind that you can buy a bag full of for a couple of bucks.
They didn't have anything to say,though.

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by cubfan64 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:35 am

somehiker wrote:Maybe a message to "chill out"... :roll:

Forgot to add:

Found a handfull of plastic cowboys and indians in Peter's Cave when I was there.
The kind that you can buy a bag full of for a couple of bucks.
They didn't have anything to say,though.
Can't think of a better place to play "cowboys and indians" than the Superstitions :)

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:29 am

i-tsari-tsu-i wrote:
silent hunter wrote:Joe
Why not read from first hand accounts?? You always pay so much $ for your book. History is free!....maybe not read as well as one of your books.....enough said...Check out the Mormon history. True accounts that may help you in your hunt for the knowledge of the Great Red man. You can find attempts at taking a Census including the Superstition Mountain Range. Guess What? There is even a map of the road (Trail if you may) from Fort Mcdowell to Florence Juntion? Good Luck


Kurt Painter
________________________

Kurt,

Not having your intimate knowledge of the Supe's, many must rely on books for everything they learn.

I don't know how you have come to the conclusion that I pay a lot of money for my books. Some are expensive, but others are relatively inexpensive. Many of the books in my library are sent to me as gifts from the authors. (No cost)

On the other hand, I have read, and heard, many original stories. When you say that's what I should do, can you give me some examples of "first person" historical accounts that can be read? Perhaps I have read some of them.

Many thanks for your suggestions,

Joe
________________________________

Kurt,

If the "first person" accounts you mentioned are not available to the public, it would still be interesting to hear the titles. Is there another reason you did not reply?

Many thanks,

Joe

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by cubfan64 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:18 am

I'm interested as well Kurt. If you can't or would rather not share them with anyone, that's fine, but if they are out there to be read, could you point me in the right direction?

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by silent hunter » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:17 am

You guy's have google..Look it up... Start at Lehi Arizona...Work your way from there.....

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:06 am

silent hunter wrote:You guy's have google..Look it up... Start at Lehi Arizona...Work your way from there.....

Kurt,
I wasn't sure which history you were referring to, but I studied Mormon history for years. I had a number of conversations with Hyrum Peterson's granddaughter. She debunked the rumor that Jacob Waltz had ever stopped at the family store on his way to, or from, the Superstitions. Here are some of the posts from Peter's old site:
______________________
Zentull
02-26-2008, 08:07 AM

There is a story I heard about Hyrum Smith Peterson and that Waltz frequented his cafe/shop and paid in gold nuggets.

Peterson was the Mesa city Marshal for a time and killed in the line of duty on November 12 1913. He had a couple of claims N/E of the Mammoth called the Hidden Treasure and the Morning Star around 1900.

He was one of the Mormon settlers that founded Mesa and was married to an Eliza J. Peterson.

From census records his information changes dramatically with each census from birth date to his parents place of birth. While the story is Waltz frequented his restaurant, I believe he ran a mercantile shop instead?

Anyone have any other information or a reference concerning him?
_________________________________________________

Joe Ribaudo
02-27-2008, 01:46 PM

Wayne,

I assume you are trying to get information on his cafe/shop and if Waltz would have been likely to buy anything there. I don't have any information on that yet, but have a source I am working with.

I have two newspaper articles about the man. One is from the Sept. 7, 1965 issue of the Arizona Republic. It relates the circumstances of his death. The other is from an unknown newspaper, and is about the conviction of the two who killed him.

While both men were sentenced to death, I believe they were released after being in jail only seven years.:rolleyes:

Here's a picture Hyrum Smith Peterson:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj26 ... terson.jpg

Take care,

Joe
_____________________________
Zentull

02-27-2008, 01:50 PM

I believe he was killed while trying to apprehend bicycle thieves ?

Joe Ribaudo

02-27-2008, 02:39 PM

Wayne,

Hyrum was shot five times while chasing the two bicycle thieves. He was chasing them while also riding a bicycle. Two shots in the arm, two in the leg and one thru the heart.

This is from the 1965 Arizona Republic article:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj26 ... ticlea.jpg

Take care,

Joe
_____________________________________
Joe Ribaudo
02-27-2008, 08:59 PM

Wayne,

The family recalls that Hyrum had a cafe, but don't remember anything specific about it. I would guess it was something he started with his son-in-law, Henry Willard Davis. When he became a Marshall he left their business.

Hyrum and his wife, Eliza, had the first and only phone in Mesa, and their daughter, Mabel, would deliver messages in town and throughout the outlying farming communities for ten cents each. The Peterson's had a very good well with cold water and everyone travelling by would stop there for water and fruit. The well was surrounded by grape arbors. I should think a store and cafe would have been a natural offshoot for that setting.

If you have some specific things you wanted to know about the man, I will be happy to answer what I can. They were from huge Mormon families, and were well respected in Arizona as well as Utah.

The following pictue is of Marshall Peterson, standing beside his bicycle:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj26 ... icycle.jpg

Take care,

Joe
__________________________________
Joe Ribaudo
02-28-2008, 01:02 PM

Pwp,

"but then...what does a Peterson know about Peterson's?"

Well sir, in this case as in just about everything else, I believe you know better than I. Not sure what your sources are, but my information is coming directly from the Peterson family and not the Internet or library.

I will not be disclosing my source anytime soon, so you will just have to take my word for the accuracy of my information.

Don't think for a minute that I don't appreciate your voiced doubts as to the veracity of my "facts", because I do. Having someone interested enough to challenge my "facts", only makes me look better when I have the answers. In other words, it just strengthens my overall believability.

As long as you continue to question my facts and not my character, I will continue to reply......as best I can.:)

Thank you for your continued interest and support.

Joe Ribaudo
_______________________
Joe Ribaudo
02-28-2008, 05:20 PM

Wayne,

Can you elaborate on the "cafe" story? Also; do you have any information about the Peterson family that may not have originated with them? (local stories)

I would assume that the three people who may have such information, would be Matthew, Greg and you.

Take care,

Joe

Hyrum Smith Peterson on horseback:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj26 ... seback.jpg
____________________________
Joe Ribaudo
02-28-2008, 06:58 PM

Pwp,

"zentull.. I do not know if don dedra has donated his papers yet..but he did mention this person while describing the ' escape' of tewksbury from the Tempe..."

Are you referring to Hyrum or someone else from the Peterson family?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo
____________________________
Gregory E. Davis
03-07-2008, 12:42 PM

Wayne: I was at the State Archives this morning and located some articles about Peterson's killing in the Arizona Republican: 11-13-1913, Page 1, 11-14-1913, Page 1. 11-15-1913, Page 1, 11-18-1913, Page 8, and 11-20-1913, Page 3. I did not look throught the Gazette but presume that it also carried similar articles on those dates. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
____________________________________
Joe Ribaudo
03-07-2008, 01:48 PM

Wayne,

Seeing Greg's post reminded me that I had not posted the other newspaper article I had. I don't know which one it is. Maybe Greg can fill that in.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj26 ... esults.jpg

If you can't read it, I will email it directly to you.

Take care,

Joe
___________________________________
Joe Ribaudo
03-07-2008, 02:04 PM

Wayne,

This came directly to me from one of Hyrum Peterson's ancestors:

"Hyrum Smith Peterson was one of the first officers killed in the line of duty in Mesa. He had been a deputy under Carl Hayden. On November 12, 1913, after 5 years of serving in law enforcement, Hyrum, mounted on a bicycle, pursued two bicycle thieves for nearly a mile, when they suddenly turned and fired. Their bullets hit him twice in the arm, twice in the leg, and once through the heart. The men were Jack Thomlan, age 20 and A. M. Leonard, age 19. They were caught and brought to trial where they were convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to death by hanging, neither one showing any type of remorse for their crime. They ended up only serving about 7 years in prison for their cold blooded murder because the Governor had pity on them and was making many prison releases.

During the trail, it was said of Hyrum S. Peterson that he had “faced his murderers as he faced his duties.” And, “there could be no more noble end than laying down one’s life in the defense of his family, his people, and his city.” He was 53 at the time of his death. His name is engraved into an 11 foot monument at the Arizona State Capital Building in remembrance of the fallen heroes who served their city as peace officers.

He is buried in the Mesa City Cemetery where his wife was later buried next to him in 1946."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This may very well be the same thing that is available from the library.......I don't really know.

Take care,

Joe
_______________________________________
Zentull
03-07-2008, 10:20 PM

Thanks guys, I still have no source of where the Waltz story comes from. It could be a family account passed down or a direct link of some sort.

I have had no luck locating the restaurant, but did find a mention of mercantile in the census records. I will get back to digging when I get over that way.
________________________________________
Joe Ribaudo
03-08-2008, 07:22 PM

Wayne,

The Peterson's have written short family histories on most, if not all of their ancestors. I have been in contact with one of those writers.

I mentioned the Jacob Waltz story and she told me, as far as she knew, it was not something the family was familiar with. That does not mean it is not a family story, but it makes the story very iffy. I would assume she would know.

Take care,

Joe
_________________________________________
Zentull

03-08-2008, 10:29 PM

"He and his wife Eliza ran a restaurant where Jacob Waltz reportedly paid for his meals with gold nuggets."

That was interesting and made sense to me. I was interested because 1) Waltz wasn't a friend or frequent visitor or family friend 2) There seems to be no side note of them searching for the mine or having some directions 3) Petersons life was more notable for what came afterwards and not because of Waltz 4) It has none of the sensationalism or tall tale factors we usually find 5) It doesn't make a good story for a book and to my knowledge is not in any LDM book I can remember.

So in my opinion there is a good chance it is a valid story of Waltz having paid in gold for meals at some point...nothing more or less, which is actually refreshing from 90% of the pioneer stories we get.

A timeline or date fixing the Petersons in known business locations might give a bit of insight. Perhaps he frequented here and after they closed he moved over to Emils establishment? Hopefully there is a bit more where this came from, such as a source and I will post it as soon as I get it.
_________________________________________
Joe Ribaudo

03-09-2008, 10:03 AM

Wayne,

I contacted my source this morning and asked her permission to give you her email address. If she agrees, I will send it to you privately.

That should happen today or tomorrow.

I assume you are working towards making your own contact, but this might be quicker. For the history of the Hyrum Peterson family, I doubt there is a better source but.... Quien sabe?

Take care,

Joe
___________________________________________
Gregory E. Davis
03-09-2008, 04:23 PM

Wayne: Next time you are are at the capitol archives, ask to see the old Phoenix business license records. If they go back far enough you should be able to find a listing for Peterson having been issued a license. If he owned the property on which the business was located, then he would be in the old tax records. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
___________________________________________

Joe Ribaudo

07-06-2008, 09:50 PM
Wayne,

Did you ever contact the Hyrum Peterson descendent I mentioned? She was very helpful in providing me with some of the family history, which she herself took part in writing.

Want to share what you learned?

Take care,

Joe
_____________________________
Zentull
07-09-2008, 12:24 AM

Never got a reply. Maybe it went into Her spam? I try not to bug folks much about stuff if I don't get an answer.
___________________________

As you can see, I share my research with others.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by silent hunter » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:01 pm

Joe I have posted before that Lonnie Peterson was my grandfather....I plan on sharing all my adventures and my finds. I was asked by the Zuni chief to stop the Zuni thread......I had no problem doing that....I posted the smelter I found. I posted the mines I have uncovered. I posted the cave for all to see.....I posted photos of the mexican drills I uncovered.....and tons more.....I even posted a chunk of Ore for all to see....Some of you held the Ore in there hands...I have made up my mind to include all the locations in a book so everyone can enjoy my years hiking..Joe did you see the smelter I found? it's here in the true stories chasing the legend....Along with some of my other finds.

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:14 pm

Kurt,

Sounds like you have some interesting Peterson family history. I look forward to reading about it.

Another pioneer Mormon family I researched was that of George Mason Adams. Do you know any of their/his history?

Thanks for your reply,

Joe

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