Native American history within the Superstitions discussion

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by silent hunter » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:31 pm

Joe
My Home town was Spanish Fork Utah...That's where lonnie and Bernice Peterson called home. (My Grand Parents)....He was used to calm the indians down a bit here in the valley.....Originally the Town of Lehi was on the north side ot the Salt river....ect. What do you want to discuss??

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:01 pm

silent hunter wrote:Joe
My Home town was Spanish Fork Utah...That's where lonnie and Bernice Peterson called home. (My Grand Parents)....He was used to calm the indians down a bit here in the valley.....Originally the Town of Lehi was on the north side ot the Salt river....ect. What do you want to discuss??
Kurt,

Are you familiar with the early history of Lehi? That's a subject I know a little about. Probably not as much as you do, but I might be able to struggle through a little conversation on the early Mormon's in Arizona/Lehi.

Since this topic is about "Native American history......", do you know what the first Mormon's in Lehi called the local Indians? Do you know the name of the Mormon settlement just north of Lehi?

Lots of interesting history in that area.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by Somero » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:13 pm

I have not gone through this hole thread yet, but here are a couple links.

http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/t ... hehist.htm

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/sp ... div.2.html

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:59 am

Wayne,

You wrote:

[Alan:

The Pima were allies and frequently converts of the Jesuits. They also knew the Superstitions as well as, and maybe even better than both Apache and Yavapai,having gathered it's resources for centuries prior to the arrival of either group. The US army, in it's battles against the Apache/Yavapai in the area,including the Sups, were usually accompanied by Pima/Maricopa guides and warriors,and later by Apache scouts as well. It's likely that Pima would have performed the same service for any Jesuit group venturing north of the Gila. They welcomed any chance to seek revenge on their enemies, the Apache and the Yavapai, who first arrived in the area north of Prescott around 1300 AD settling among the Pai people,and spread southward some time after a split occurred within the group sometime around 1750.(Hoxie, p.456)
It was the Wiikchasapaya clan of the Kwevikopaya (Southern Yavapai) who periodically inhabited the land along the Apache Trail .Few in number,the largest village known was Ananyiké (quail's roost),a summer encampment of about 100 near Fish Creek.
There's much more information within this wikpedia entry,including references and links to further reading....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavapai_pe ... te_note-15

Regards:SH.]

I don't believe there is any historical/archaeological record of the Pima's living in the Superstitions. They say that they have lived around or near the Supe's.

If, as you say, they lived in the mountains before the Apache (Tonto) or the Yavapais even arrived in the area, they would hardly have any remembered memories of the exact terrain of the interior.

If possible, the army would use Native Americans who were familiar with the area for scouts. In the Apache wars, they often use the Apache. They, as well as the Pima, may have never even been in the area they were going into. Their value was in knowing the enemy and what to look for.

I am open to hearing from other sources. This is, basically, just my opinion based on what I have heard and read.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by somehiker » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:04 pm

Joe:

"If, as you say, they lived in the mountains before the Apache (Tonto) or the Yavapais even arrived in the area"

I can only suggest you read my post again.
I did not claim that the Pima (as a tribe) LIVED in the Sups.,only that they gathered it's resources.
In doing so,for centuries,I would think that they got to know those mountains pretty well.
We in contrast, have spent far less time out there...but I'll bet either one of us would have little trouble finding our way around,with or without a map and compass.
But I do think,that if you were to ask a Pima about it,they might very well disagree.
From what I have read,and some very knowledgeable professionals seem to concur,the Pima consider themselves descendents of the Hohokam.There doesn't seem to be any question that the Hohokam inhabited the Sups. for a considerable length of time.

Since you have chosen to copy this post over from the "locked" Chipping Away topic, I will assume that you wish to further discuss how the Pima relate to the Legends and Lore of the Superstitions.
It's not a bad idea,although I don't know how much I would be able to contribute. I do know
that they have a legend about Superstition Mountain similar to the biblical flood story. I believe there could be a couple of other legends as well.

Regards:Wayne

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:04 am

somehiker wrote:Joe:

"If, as you say, they lived in the mountains before the Apache (Tonto) or the Yavapais even arrived in the area"

I can only suggest you read my post again.
I did not claim that the Pima (as a tribe) LIVED in the Sups.,only that they gathered it's resources.
In doing so,for centuries,I would think that they got to know those mountains pretty well.
We in contrast, have spent far less time out there...but I'll bet either one of us would have little trouble finding our way around,with or without a map and compass.
But I do think,that if you were to ask a Pima about it,they might very well disagree.
From what I have read,and some very knowledgeable professionals seem to concur,the Pima consider themselves descendents of the Hohokam.There doesn't seem to be any question that the Hohokam inhabited the Sups. for a considerable length of time.

Since you have chosen to copy this post over from the "locked" Chipping Away topic, I will assume that you wish to further discuss how the Pima relate to the Legends and Lore of the Superstitions.
It's not a bad idea,although I don't know how much I would be able to contribute. I do know
that they have a legend about Superstition Mountain similar to the biblical flood story. I believe there could be a couple of other legends as well.

Regards:Wayne
Wayne,

I would agree that the Pima had there own legends and lore concerning the Superstitions but, from what I have read, that included their not entering the mountains.

Tom Kollenborn has written that the Pima never lived in the range. I would say that a people who follow the seasonal food cycle, lived where they harvested those food sources. If, at some time, they harvested crops along the Salt or Gila Rivers, they lived at those locations.

It seems to me, that you are placing the Pima/Hohokam in the mountains many hundreds of years before the Yavapai and Apache even arrived in the area. Is it your belief that they retained memories of the many canyons, trails, waterholes and places of shelter over that long period of time?

For that era, would you say that's a valid interpretation of the term lived, or do you feel it requires some kind of permanent village site?

A few points, as I understand it, about the Hohokam culture:

The first period (Pioneer, 300 BC to 550 AD) actually is the beginning of their construction of canals and semi-underground dwellings. That would include Snaketown. That would indicate, to me, that prior to that period they were a semi-nomadic people, or had migrated out of some, perhaps settled, place in Mesoamerica.

By the time Europeans arrived in the area, the Hohokam were long gone. They had probably merged into the Papagos. They were a semi-nomadic group which fits into the Pima activities you describe for around the Superstitions. It seems that the different tribes were in a long-term state of flux, mixing and melding, to some extent, throughout their history. For that reason, it is often difficult to trace their exact histories.

That's how I read it, so I could of course be totally off base.

Take care,

Joe

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:43 am

Wayne,

"The Pima were allies and frequently converts of the Jesuits. They also knew the Superstitions as well as, and maybe even better than both Apache and Yavapai,having gathered it's resources for centuries prior to the arrival of either group. The US army, in it's battles against the Apache/Yavapai in the area,including the Sups, were usually accompanied by Pima/Maricopa guides and warriors,and later by Apache scouts as well. It's likely that Pima would have performed the same service for any Jesuit group venturing north of the Gila. They welcomed any chance to seek revenge on their enemies, the Apache and the Yavapai, who first arrived in the area north of Prescott around 1300 AD settling among the Pai people,and spread southward some time after a split occurred within the group sometime around 1750.(Hoxie, p.456)"

I have gone back through many of my sources, and can't really find any justification for your statement concerning the extensive (my word) knowledge of the Pima in regards to the Superstition Mountains. As you well know, the Pima's were also not always allies of the Jesuits.
There are many better sources dealing with Pima/Jesuit relations, "Mission Of Sorrows....." by John Kessell being just one.

I have no problem with using the Hoxie edited book for a specific comment, as you have done, but I would never, personally, pick it up when researching the Pima or Jesuits. As he states in his Introduction: [This book acknowledges the size and complexity of its subject and covers it as full as possible in a single-volume work, but it does not claim to tour every point on the "circle" of Native American experience."]

For me, the problem with this kind of book, and I have a number of similar works, is that many details of specific events and era's are, by the restrictions of space, left out or are poorly covered. I feel that the quote above is an excellent example of that kind of a lack of historical focus. IMHO, It doesn't really land on any subject long enough to do it justice.

Just my personal opinion, so I could be way out in left field.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by somehiker » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:50 pm

Joe:

You present some good arguments...but I believe there is some validity in those I make as well.

It is not I who is placing the Hohokam in the Superstitions. The historians and archaeologists have known about their occupation of many sites within the mountains for over a century. It has always been my contention that many groups of ancient peoples, likely in small numbers, passed through the Superstitions/Tonto wilderness area as nomads or as migrants headed for greener pastures.But the Hohokam,so far as we know, were the only ones who built permanent structures throughout the area, from the Tonto Basin to the western edge of the Phoenix Basin.

It is also a fact that the Pima,the Maricopa,and the Papago all claim to be descendents of the Hohokam and I see no reason to doubt that they are.
It is only because of their answers,given to the first european explorers...Kino,etc. ... to questions about who built the extensive ruins, that any confusion existed in the first place IMO.

While it may be true that native "tribes" may or may not have extensive knowledge of every detail of areas surrounding their "defined" borders, I do not agree with those who would deny them a general understanding of what lay beyond the horizon,often far beyond their "territory", especially for those cultures which evolved from nomadic lifestyles....or that such knowledge could be passed down and retained for many generations.
Such knowledge could also have been gained from many other possible sources such as hunting/gathering parties,war parties,trading activities,captives...not to mention any individual exploration done by those Pima who may have just been curious as to what was in the mountains.
Just the fact that the Pima were well established long before the Yavapai moved in gives rise to the possibility that they may have been forced to withdraw from areas,including the Sups,which may have once been part of their territory. The Pima lived through several drought cycles and times of famine,both before and after the arrival of the Europeans. In such times sedentary groups often adapt,not by pulling up stakes,but rather by expanding the areas from which they forage their food, etc.

You and I have both pointed out in previous discussions how there is little evidence for any Apache "sacred sites" within the Sups, and there isn't. Stories about the "Black Legion","Ghost Horse" and so-called sacred sites, can probably be all traced back to a dead end in someone's imagination,usually a white man's at that. We have all seen where such tall tales can even find there way into books written by well regarded writers,such as Helen Corbin.

As I've mentioned, I do consider it possible that certain places of historical significance do exist,both on and behind the main mountain,which some members both the Yavapai/Tonto Apache and the Pima may consider "sacred".Skeleton Cave,where both Pima and Yavapai were present comes immediately to mind,as does the "Massacre Site",where some versions of the story suggest that it was a Pima party that was attacked and massacred,rather than a party of mexican miners.Sites where Yavapai rancherias were overrun by the regular and volunteer armies might also be considered "sacred" to some degree,as would any "burial grounds" which have been said to exist out there.
Garden Valley, having been the site of a Hohokam Village and farming community,also contains burial sites which all tribes consider sacred.
Considering that the Pima/Papago/Maricopa believe the Hohokam to be their "ancestors", does it not make sense that they would feel this way ?

NAGPRA is based on this concept as well,and I'd think that if ancient human remains were to be found within the Sups tomorrow, all three groups would be involved in the process of determining whose they were.

Personally,I have only visited one place which I think might be used for some ceremonial purpose.That would be the Medicine Wheel that I have shared in some of my photos. I doubt the Yavapai or the Pima built the wheel.It may have been the Apache, but I am still researching it and have someone else in mind as well.

Regards:Wayne

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:50 pm

somehiker wrote:Joe:

You present some good arguments...but I believe there is some validity in those I make as well.

It is not I who is placing the Hohokam in the Superstitions. The historians and archaeologists have known about their occupation of many sites within the mountains for over a century. It has always been my contention that many groups of ancient peoples, likely in small numbers, passed through the Superstitions/Tonto wilderness area as nomads or as migrants headed for greener pastures.But the Hohokam,so far as we know, were the only ones who built permanent structures throughout the area, from the Tonto Basin to the western edge of the Phoenix Basin.

It is also a fact that the Pima,the Maricopa,and the Papago all claim to be descendents of the Hohokam and I see no reason to doubt that they are.
It is only because of their answers,given to the first european explorers...Kino,etc. ... to questions about who built the extensive ruins, that any confusion existed in the first place IMO.

While it may be true that native "tribes" may or may not have extensive knowledge of every detail of areas surrounding their "defined" borders, I do not agree with those who would deny them a general understanding of what lay beyond the horizon,often far beyond their "territory", especially for those cultures which evolved from nomadic lifestyles....or that such knowledge could be passed down and retained for many generations.
Such knowledge could also have been gained from many other possible sources such as hunting/gathering parties,war parties,trading activities,captives...not to mention any individual exploration done by those Pima who may have just been curious as to what was in the mountains.
Just the fact that the Pima were well established long before the Yavapai moved in gives rise to the possibility that they may have been forced to withdraw from areas,including the Sups,which may have once been part of their territory. The Pima lived through several drought cycles and times of famine,both before and after the arrival of the Europeans. In such times sedentary groups often adapt,not by pulling up stakes,but rather by expanding the areas from which they forage their food, etc.

You and I have both pointed out in previous discussions how there is little evidence for any Apache "sacred sites" within the Sups, and there isn't. Stories about the "Black Legion","Ghost Horse" and so-called sacred sites, can probably be all traced back to a dead end in someone's imagination,usually a white man's at that. We have all seen where such tall tales can even find there way into books written by well regarded writers,such as Helen Corbin.

As I've mentioned, I do consider it possible that certain places of historical significance do exist,both on and behind the main mountain,which some members both the Yavapai/Tonto Apache and the Pima may consider "sacred".Skeleton Cave,where both Pima and Yavapai were present comes immediately to mind,as does the "Massacre Site",where some versions of the story suggest that it was a Pima party that was attacked and massacred,rather than a party of mexican miners.Sites where Yavapai rancherias were overrun by the regular and volunteer armies might also be considered "sacred" to some degree,as would any "burial grounds" which have been said to exist out there.
Garden Valley, having been the site of a Hohokam Village and farming community,also contains burial sites which all tribes consider sacred.
Considering that the Pima/Papago/Maricopa believe the Hohokam to be their "ancestors", does it not make sense that they would feel this way ?

NAGPRA is based on this concept as well,and I'd think that if ancient human remains were to be found within the Sups tomorrow, all three groups would be involved in the process of determining whose they were.

Personally,I have only visited one place which I think might be used for some ceremonial purpose.That would be the Medicine Wheel that I have shared in some of my photos. I doubt the Yavapai or the Pima built the wheel.It may have been the Apache, but I am still researching it and have someone else in mind as well.

Regards:Wayne
Wayne,

There is a lot more than "some" validity in your argument.

The blending of the tribes is also a well known fact. It's the timing and who was in the Superstitions, with knowledge of the terrain, in the era we are discussing where we may go our separate ways.

There are medicine wheels and other ceremonial artifacts that have been created in and around the Superstitions, that have nothing to do with Native Americans. Some look pretty crude, and others look pretty damn good. If you have found one that can be authenticated, my hat's off to you.

A good friend of mine found some authentic burial pots in the range. I think they turned out to be Salado. Jack Carlson believes the pottery sherds in Garden Valley to also be Salado.

Why do you think the Pima would consider Skeleton Cave to be sacred? No Pima were killed there.

When Father Kino first encountered the Pima's, he characterized them as a sedentary people. I don't believe they were using the Superstitions at that time.
They may have harvested some types of food in the range at some previous time, but you could be talking hundreds of years.

Others may have a different opinion, including Tom K., but I haven't asked him about it. While the Pima and Hohokam may have been the same people at one time in the distant past, I would say the two histories are different.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Native American history within the Superstitions discuss

Post by somehiker » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:42 am

Joe:

I would prefer to discuss the existence of Salado ruins and artifacts in a more dedicated exchange.
Mainly because the Salado,although contemporary, are considered a different culture than the Hohokam in several ways. I also intend to get back to our other discussion about the wider ranging historical aspects of cultural exchange throughout the SW and Mexico. Just don't have much time now.

As you are aware,Tom Kollenborn has written many articles which refer to the historical presence of various peoples within the Superstitions.

This is what he had to say about Garden Valley.

http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/sto ... easure.pdf

[Garden Valley was farmed by a small group of Hohokams probably a 1,000 years ago when the climatic conditions were more favorable. This large valley flat has more than 200 acres of arable land when there is a sufficient supply of water. Today mesquite and chain cholla have become the climax vegetation in the area because cattle growers over-grazed the area for the past 100 years.
A ruin was located in the center of the valley. This structure probably housed twenty-five to thirty individuals, while small caves on the fringe of the valley contained other families. Prior to 1930, the valley floor was literally covered with stone tools used by the ancient inhabitants who cultivated this special parcel of land.
Late in November of 1931, the Arizona Republican, co-sponsored an archaeological expedition lead by the City of Phoenix archaeologist Odds Halseth. The expedition undertook selective collecting of surface artifacts and documented the location of each artifact before it was removed. Halseth, Harvey Mott and other members of the archaeological expedition made a cursory inventory of surface artifacts they did not collect.
Several hundred lithics were inventoried on the surface, recorded, and left in place. Today, none of these lithics remain on the floor of Garden Valley. They all have been carried off by collectors during the past sixty-nine years. My father and I use to walk through Garden Valley on our way to Second Water. Sometimes my father would take a side trip and show me the matates and manos. They were still quite numerous in the late 1940’s if you looked closely for them. The lithics and potsherds of Garden Valley were indicative of the Hohokam culture.
There is considerable evidence to suggest the Pimas gathered and foraged in the area long before 1500 A.D. The Pimas gathers the seeds of many plants common the Superstition Mountain region including the cacti fruit and the seedpods of various legumes such as the mesquite, ironwood, palo Verde and acacia.
The Apaches and Yavapais probably moved into these rugged mountains around 1500 A.D. The Apaches and Yavapais both constructed temporary rancherias or farmsteads in locations such as Garden Valley, Frog Tanks, Dismal Valley, Rock Tanks, Reavis Valley, along Tortilla Creek and many of the tributaries draining into the Salt River.
Most of these rancherias and farmstead were destroy during the U.S. military campaigns against the
Apaches and Yavapais between 1864-1868.
]

Tom,in his chronicles,has mentioned Pimas within the Sups on several other occasions as well.But I will post links to those in a separate post later.

"Why do you think the Pima would consider Skeleton Cave to be sacred? No Pima were killed there."

Bourke's account of the Skeleton Cave Battle,as well as that of Mike Burns'(Hoo-Moo-Thy-Ah) describes the death of one Pima as the only fatality among the military force deployed against the Yavapai.

http://zybtarizona.com/boy.htm

"It happened that only one was left still alive. As he had only one shot left, he killed one Pima Indian at noon. He might have killed more, but when he reached out with the barrel of his gun to reach a bag of gunpowder, a bullet or two struck the gun so that it bent nearly double. He was left in a hole helpless. Finally he was shot. He was my brother-in-law. He was never known to have ever missed a shot. He was the last one to be killed, and he was killed like a man."

Regards:Wayne

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