Edward S. Curtis books and stories

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spirit
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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

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Steven Trost

I admire you for having such a wonderful and valuable resource as the Edward Curtis collection. I live in a place with limited access to books and computers but make the best of it whenever I can. I wonder if I could impose on you to look up something for me in your Curtis Native American collection ?

I'm not certain which volume this might be found in but it would be in the Apache section. Do either Curtis, Phillips or Meyers make any historical reference to the Edwards of San Carlos ? Also are there any photos of the Edwards or of the sacred movement in any of the Curtis volumes ? I am a follower of the holy ground and would greatly appreciate anything you might be able to pass along.

There doesn't seem to be a way to contact you privately on this website so if you would rather I could give you my email, or maybe you know of a way to private message another member.

thank you and I apologize for the imposition,

spirit
Last edited by spirit on Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

spirit wrote:Steven Trost

I admire you for having such a wonderful and valuable resource as the Edward Curtis collection. I live in a place with limited access to books and computers but make the best of it whenever I can. I wonder if I could impose on you to look up something for me in your Curtis Native American collection ?

I'm not certain which volume this might be found in but it would be in the Apache section. Do either Curtis, Phillips or Meyers make any historical reference to the Edwards of San Carlos ? Also are there any photos of the Edwards or of the sacred movement in any of the Curtis volumes ? I am a follower of the holy ground and would greatly appreciate anything you might be able to pass along.

There doesn't seem to be a way to contact you privately on this website so if you would rather I could give you my email, or maybe you know of a way to private message another member.

thank you and I apologize for the imposition,

Dosena
Spirit,

Do you have a first name for the Edwards information you seek? From what you wrote, the assumption would be that it is Silas John Edwards. If you are looking for a picture, Silas can be found on page 120 of "Don't Let the Sun Step Over You" by Eva Tulene Watt. She writes about him from page 119-123.

Image

A book that covers him even better is "Apache Mothers and Daughters" by the great-great-grandaughter of Victorio, Narcissus Duffy Gayton.

Hope the above information is of some use to you.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by StevenTrost »

Hello spirit,

Glad to help with the Curtis collection in any way I can.
To answer your specific questions, I looked through the ES Curtis Native Americans volumes 1-20 this morning and did not find a reference by Curtis to Edwards in those volumes. Also looked through my 4 Supplement volumes for text or photos of Edwards of San Carlos and found nothing. I did find text and photo of Das Lan so it appears to me Curtis work on the Apache came just after Das Lan and in that small time period before Edwards. I assume it was the Curtis work you were specifically looking since you are holy ground follower and are surely aware of other sources.

Another specific question you asked and one source you may or may not be aware of, is Curtis partner, William Phillips, who did most of the ethnic and anthropology work for Curtis and his Native American book, did a lot of writing on Sailis Jaan Edwards, and the other Edwards at San Carlos. His manuscript collection and notes and papers are archived and I have those in my collection along with the Curtis Native American volumes. They go into some detail you might be interested in.

You can contact me at steventrost80@yahoo.com if you haven't already got the Phillips papers.

Steven
Last edited by StevenTrost on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

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Steven Trost

Thank you for that reply, yes, it was the 20 Curtis volumes in particular I was wondering about because I have never had any access to them in total and had never seen a photo of any of the Edwards from San Carlos in any of his photos I have access to. I never knew of anyone with the complete volume set until I was searching Curtis Native Americans and found the link. I must say you are right about why there is no text or photos of the Edwards, Curtis finished his work on the Apache just before Edwards and the holy ground became well known, that would explain it perfectly.

And yes, I would very much like to see the archived papers of William Phillips concerning Edwards. I knew Phillips and Meyers had been the lead persons in Curtis's research of the native Americans and also did work on native Americans on their own. Thanks so much for the generous offer.


i-tsaritsu-i

Thank you very much for your response, it has been appreciated. It was not proper for me to speak or write the first name of Edwards and could only refer to him as Edwards or Sailis bi-okqqhi. I took a chance that Mr. Trost having an interest in native Americans would know who I was refering to by the name Edwards. He was among the most well known of Apache of the 20th century. I see your interest goes deeply also. I was interested with anything the Curtis books might have had concerning him and the rest of the family. I knew Mrs. Watt, she was special.
i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

spirit wrote:Steven Trost

Thank you for that reply, yes, it was the 20 Curtis volumes in particular I was wondering about because I have never had any access to them in total and had never seen a photo of any of the Edwards from San Carlos in any of his photos I have access to. I never knew of anyone with the complete volume set until I was searching Curtis Native Americans and found the link. I must say you are right about why there is no text or photos of the Edwards, Curtis finished his work on the Apache just before Edwards and the holy ground became well known, that would explain it perfectly.

And yes, I would very much like to see the archived papers of William Phillips concerning Edwards. I knew Phillips and Meyers had been the lead persons in Curtis's research of the native Americans and also did work on native Americans on their own. Thanks so much for the generous offer.


i-tsaritsu-i

Thank you very much for your response, it has been appreciated. It was not proper for me to speak or write the first name of Edwards and could only refer to him as Edwards or Sailis bi-okqqhi. I took a chance that Mr. Trost having an interest in native Americans would know who I was refering to by the name Edwards. He was among the most well known of Apache of the 20th century. I see your interest goes deeply also. I was interested with anything the Curtis books might have had concerning him and the rest of the family. I knew Mrs. Watt, she was special.

Spirit,

Thank you for your reply.

I have been interested in Apache history for a number of years now, and I'm very familiar with Edwards and his "Holy Grounds" ceremonies.

That being said, I did find it curious that you have used a picture of a Crown Dancer (Gan) with your user-name. Edwards considered the Gan's devils and their ceremonies devil dances. That created a major rift between the "Apache Jesus" and the more traditional Apache.

I do realize the religion has changed over the years, such as no longer using snakes in their ceremonies, so it may be that they no longer hold the Mountain Gans in such low esteem. My interest was strictly historical, so I have no idea of current beliefs.

In that respect, I do hope you will continue to post and keep us informed as to where the Holy Grounds movement stands today.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

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i-tsaritsu-i

I do not have a computer of my own and have very limited ability to borrow one and I must return home soon so I can only respond quickly.

You are only partly right in your words. Sailis bi-okqqhi as all Christian missionaries saw most of the gan ceremony as you said, devil dances. I am holy ground but traditional always as were many of the following. It was not one or the other, it was a blending of both. Di-yi Edwards did not ban the ceremonies, only influenced against most of them. There are many gan ceremonies, not just one. Edwards spoke against the healing ceremony, the curing and diagnostic ceremonies mostly. He knew the most important ceremony, the sunrise na' ih' es would never be stopped. Many other gan ceremonies continued to be performed by some holy ground. Holy ground is not a one size must fit all religion, as are many of the white mans. Snakes are no longer held in the same esteem today as they were in the older days. The holy ground has changed and is changing and is practiced by few today. In some the traditional side of the religion is even more traditional today.

You must think to yourself, if the holy ground was simply an extension of Christianity, why did the government and missionaries fight so hard to stop those who followed holy ground ? There is more to the religion than you know, and you cannot take everything you read in a book for certain. bi-okqqhi was Apache Jesus, the word for Apache war god and Jesus are almost exactly the same. That would seem a contradiction. There is more to the religion than one can read from books.

I must go, ka-dish-day.

Dosena
i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

Spirit,

Thank you again for your reply.

There is much that I don't know. Learning a little every day.

ka-dish-day and adaa gonoldzaa.

Joe
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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

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Hmm??? John Wayne's teeth ya ho, ya ho...John Wayne's teeth ya ho, ya ho.
Are they fake or are they real......Are they wooden or maybe steel.

Republican fascism ho, ya ho.
John Wayne's teeth, ya ho, ya ho.

Democrat fascism, ho ya ho.

John Wayne's teeth ya ho, ya ho......John Wayne's teeth ya ho, ya ho.
Are they fake or are they real....Are they wooden or maybe steel....


Double-Jack Inc.
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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by somehiker »

silent hunter wrote:Hmm??? John Wayne's teeth ya ho, ya ho...John Wayne's teeth ya ho, ya ho.
Are they fake or are they real......Are they wooden or maybe steel.

Republican fascism ho, ya ho.
John Wayne's teeth, ya ho, ya ho.

Democrat fascism, ho ya ho.

John Wayne's teeth ya ho, ya ho......John Wayne's teeth ya ho, ya ho.
Are they fake or are they real....Are they wooden or maybe steel....


Double-Jack Inc.
Kurt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_Signals_%28film%29
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPnV2392Tck)

I'm not sure as to why you posted this ditty from "Smoke Signals",or how it may apply to this subject or any other thread within this forum.
If your intention was to open a discussion about the movie and it's characterization of modern day native culture, that's OK, but you should have included links to your quote and your reasons for posting it.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

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