Edward S. Curtis books and stories

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spirit
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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by spirit » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:05 am

i-tsaritsu-i,

There is much history of the Edwards and Irving at San Carlos and White River. Is there something specific you want to learn about them ? I am not of those clans and am not sure if I would know what you are asking about.

Please understand, an Apache will offer to tell another person things he himself experiences or learns, but it is considered improper to ask an Apache general questions of a personal and family nature, especially someone elses family without being specific. Once the question is phrased specifically the Apache will either respond to it, or politely decline to answer. Or he may just change the subject. It is not an insult, there is an old reason for this that has been lost to many of the present Apache, but some still adhere to the old ways.

spirit

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:41 am

spirit wrote:i-tsaritsu-i,

There is much history of the Edwards and Irving at San Carlos and White River. Is there something specific you want to learn about them ? I am not of those clans and am not sure if I would know what you are asking about.

Please understand, an Apache will offer to tell another person things he himself experiences or learns, but it is considered improper to ask an Apache general questions of a personal and family nature, especially someone elses family without being specific. Once the question is phrased specifically the Apache will either respond to it, or politely decline to answer. Or he may just change the subject. It is not an insult, there is an old reason for this that has been lost to many of the present Apache, but some still adhere to the old ways.

spirit
Spirit,



Someone I used to consider a friend once wrote this:



[As a young boy I had many happy times visiting my cousins, the Boni's and Betty Edwards at San Carlos. I learned early on that friendship is fleeting on the reservation and one day you can be a friend and the next an enemy. One lesson I learned early illustrates the division and carrying on of old hatreds and beliefs. While on San Carlos I would play with my cousins and kids in the Gilson Wash and Farmers Station areas. David and Kenneth Gibson, Buddy Boni, the Irving cousins, Fremount Valor, Adam Noli, Teran Kitchean, Jack and Billy Patton, Roger Stevens, Margarite Faras nephew, and many others.

I always knew there was a friction between certain families but didn't know why. One morning the Irving boys and I set out rat hunting. The big pack rats that made their homes in piles of cactus on the desert could be taken down with our homemade slingshots. The Irving boys grandmother would fry these pack rats in a big cast iron skillet after cleaning them and rolling them in flour and salt. They were considered a delicasy and I have to admit tasted good.



Coming home to Grandma Irving's after a hard day of rat hunting with our days catch in the upper Gilson wash, we ran into about 15-20 kids who most of them I knew and considered friends. It was just the three Irving boys and myself and for reasons unbeknown to me at the time the other boys squared off with us. Roger Stevens told me to chose sides and since I had been with the Irving's and having a good time, I decided to throw my fortunes in with them. My cousin was in the other group so I didn't at the time realize the seriousness of the encounter.]



He had claimed to be raised at San Carlos. That, and many other claims proved to be untrue. The man knew his Apache history and customs forwards and backwards. He fooled many people who called him friend. The above story had the ring of truth, including the names of the people involved.



I was wondering what you might think of the story he told. Does it ring true to you?



I wrote this on the same site, around the same time:


"Many things are unspoken in the Apache language. A glance skyward or silence. If you are truly listening, you will understand the unspoken word. This is a place for our (white man's) words. It is also a place for the white man's names."

I appreciate your reply and respect your silence on certain subjects.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by spirit » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:49 pm

i-tsaritsu-i,

It may be the cultural differences but I do not know what you are saying or asking.

It seems to have nothing to do with the topic here or what the conversations have been about. I did not mean any disrespect to you, you simply asked something that had no specific question and expected me to fill in the blanks. That is not done where I live and I tried to explain that to you in a respectful way.

Now you ask me to do the same thing once again. You do not speak with people, you talk at them, their words have no meaning to you. I do not think I understand you, and am certain you do not understand me.

You wrote, " this is a place for our (white mans) words."

I can only see this as I am not welcome here.

ka-dish-day

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:43 pm

spirit wrote:i-tsaritsu-i,

It may be the cultural differences but I do not know what you are saying or asking.

It seems to have nothing to do with the topic here or what the conversations have been about. I did not mean any disrespect to you, you simply asked something that had no specific question and expected me to fill in the blanks. That is not done where I live and I tried to explain that to you in a respectful way.

Now you ask me to do the same thing once again. You do not speak with people, you talk at them, their words have no meaning to you. I do not think I understand you, and am certain you do not understand me.

You wrote, " this is a place for our (white mans) words."

I can only see this as I am not welcome here.

ka-dish-day
Spirit,

That was a quote from another forum, discussing the "Black Legion". I often use Apache words, and have done so a number of times here. It depends on who I am talking to.

Since I am having a respectful conversation with you, I must want you here. It's not my place to comment on who is welcome on these forums. I enjoy your posts and find myself learning something new every time you post.

Along those lines, I am trying to learn something about people you, and my ex-friend, have mentioned online. Since you don't want to discuss them, I will drop that line of questions.

My apologies.

Gonosaa'go,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by silent hunter » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:07 am

Spirit....My Zuni thread is on this forum under (true stories chasing the legends) Cibola trip..My Father was from the Utah Indians....The Zuni people facinate me because they have lived in the same wash for over 1800 years and have never taken sides or participated in any wars....There written history is Vast! I have included some of the writtings in that thread....




Double Jack Inc.

.....Edited by moderator.....
.....Final Warning....!

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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by StevenTrost » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:13 am

spirit,

Hopefully you will not leave because some people like playing childish games with other members. You are welcome here. Everyone is not here just to argue and fight. Most are serious and would like to contribute what they believe and are here to listen to others respectfuly no matter what their opinions are.

I want to ask you something specific about the topic of this thread the Edward S Curtis books and story's. And too ,William Washington's papers. Washington was the anthropolagist with Curtis on writing those books. In Curtis's book volume 1 and in Washingtons papers about the Apache, he and Washington say the Yavapai Apache-Mohaves were in the Superstition mountains and were a part of the rest of the Apache like the Tontos and Coyateros. Like they were all one people. This would mean to me the Tontos and Coyateros were also in the Superstitions. It is all very confusing because just about every book I read gives me a different story. Here is my questions, do you agree with Curtis and Washington on this ? and would it be appropriate to ask you what you and others at San Carlos indian reservation believe about the Yavapai and Apache indians and being in the Superstition mountains.

Thanks and speaking for myself I would realy appreciate to have your take on these things.

Steven Trost

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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by Somero » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:29 am

Spirit

Please do not let the words of one individual make you feel unwelcome. Your knowledge is most appreciated and I would hope to have a discussion with you about the Ancestors and Spirits of the Superstitions in a different thread.

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:07 pm

Somero and Steven,

I am in total agreement with what you have both written.

If someone starts an argument here, it should be reported to the moderator. Seems like Wayne is pretty fair and taking care of business.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by somehiker » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:48 pm

Hopefully, spirit will continue to post his questions and comments. No doubt all of us could derive some benefit from any contribution that he is able to make to our knowledge of the Apache history in the area.

Regards:Wayne

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Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by spirit » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:51 am

silenthunter,

I found the Zuni site you told me about. Very interesting and fascinating, enjoyed it very much. I especially was interested in the food left on the stone altar and the Zuni in ceremonial dress. You may have caught the Zuni coming or going from a ceremonial site. Thank you for the site information.

somero and somehiker,

Asoogd, akud ndesa nzhoni yesitchi yeatido. Thank you, I wish the people there to speak of goodness and to talk with me.

spirit

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