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 Post subject: Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:30 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:50 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Natanes mountains
Steven Trost,

The questions you ask are complicated and take a long time to answer but I will try to do it shortly.

Yes, Curtis and Washington are correct. The Yavapai and Nde Apache were together from our earliest memory. This is what I believe as do the San Carlos Apache people.

When the Salado people began leaving the area that is now east central Arizona, another group of people began moving in, these were the Pai, (Yavapai) they called themselves the Kewevkapaya (people of the east). During the time the Salado were leaving and the Pai were arriving, another group of people began appearing from the north. These were the Nnee, the Nde, (Apache) Athabascan speaking people. From where they came we do not know for certain.

The Nde Apache intermarried with the Salado who stayed behind and also with the Kewevkapaya Yavapai.

The Kewevkapaya people settled the southern and western slopes of the Pinal mountains, the Dripping Springs and Superstition mountains, the Four Peaks and Mazatzal mountains also. The San Carlos Apache ancestors are a combination of the Salado, the Kewevkapaya and the Nde Apache people who came from the north.

One group of the Nde Apache came into and setteled in an area known as Tiis Ebah (later called the wheatfields) on the slopes of the Pinal mountains. Tiis Ebah means (cottonwood trees there) the people became known as the Tiis Ebah Nnee (cottonwood tree people) or the Pinal Apache. These people are my ancestors.

The Kewevkapaya also lived at Tiis Ebah at the same time. The Kewevkapaya and the Nde Apache were friends, intermarried, shared culture, fought battles together, raided together and defended their homeland together. Today, the majority of the San Carlos people are Pinal Apache from the Tiis Ebah clans.

A second group of the Nde people settled in the Tonto Basin, Mazatzal mountains, Salt and Verde river areas. They lived there with the Kewevkapaya. They were the Dilzhee e people (Tonto Apache) some of their leaders were Kewevkapaya Yavapai.

A third group settled in the Arivap area, they were the Tsee Zhinnee (people of the dark rocks) or Arivaipa Apache. These peoples origin may have partially been from some of the Tiis Ebah Nnee, Pinal Apaches.

A fourth group of the Nde Apache settled in the Apache Peaks area north of Globe. These people were the Bichi Lehe Nnee (fled to the mountains people) or Apache Peaks Apache.

Finally a fifth group of the Nde settled at Tiis Zhaazhe Bikoh (small cottonwood canyon) along the San Carlos River. These people became known as the San Carlos Apache.

The San Carlos people today are a diverse group from several different areas and origins, including a common origin with the Kewevkapaya Yavapai. Some Kewevkapaya still live at San Carlos today.


Other Apache who also came from the north but are not associated with the San Carlos Apache are the,

Dzil t'adn, Cibecue Apache.

Laan Baaha, The Western White mountain Apache.

Dzil Ghaa a, The Eastern White mountain Apache. Some of the Eastern White mountain Apache were also the Dzil Nchaa si an (Mt. Graham Apache).

The Tse Noltl izhn, Mazatzal Apache

The Dzil Dlaazhe (Mt. Turnbull Apache) also a combination of the Nde and Yavapai peoples.

And of course the Chiricahua Apache who were the most infamous Apache of San Carlos reservation and the surrounding area, but are not associated with the San Carlos people or reservation today.

They are the ,

Chokonen, also called Cho-kune, Tsoka-ne-nde people.

The Chihenne, also called the Tcihene, Tcihende, Cha-ha.

The Bedonkohe, known as the Aiaha, a small subgroup of the Chiricahua.

And the Nednhi also called the Nde-Ndai, Nde-nda-i.

Much of the confusion of the Apache comes because the white man called us and labeled us one thing, while we called ourselves something completely different. I hope this helps to sort things out a little better for you. This is what I believe.

spirit


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 Post subject: Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:36 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
Posts: 573
spirit:

I'm happy you've decided to stay with us.
That last post was a humdinger and I will be printing it out for my reference file.
Thanks.

Regards:Somehiker


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 Post subject: Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:14 pm 

Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 9:17 am
Posts: 32
spirit,

Thank you for that information filled reply ! That was more information than I have gotten from a dozen books. If Im understanding you right, the groups that originated and became the San Carlos people today were basicly one and the same with the Yavapai the Kewevkipaya from the very beginning. So many books I read go into length to try and tell the differences between the Yavapai and the Apache. No wonder people get so confused. You said the Kewevkpaya settled the Superstition mountains as one of their home ranges. Do you mean they lived there and did the Pinal Apaches you are part of ever live there also ? I really appreciate your replys if you feel you can answer these questions.

Steven Trost


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 Post subject: Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:50 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Natanes mountains
Steven,

To answer your question, the Kewevkapaya, also sometimes called Yavapai and Apache-Mohaves, considered what the white man called the Superstition mountains, as part of their homeland. The Tiis Ebah Nnee (Pinal Apache) considered the Pinal mountains their homeland and used the surrounding mountains and valleys, rivers and streams, whenever the need arose.

The Kewevkapaya and the Pinal Apache were allies from the earliest days. You should understand, the Kewevkapaya were a part of the Yumen culture and language, a part of the Pai people. The Kewevkapaya were one of four bands of the Yavapai people. Other Yumen groups that belonged to the Pai lived farther west and to the north, all the way to the Grand Canyon. The Kewevkapaya had become enemies of the other Pai groups that lived to the west and to the Grand Canyon. They were at war with their own people so to speak. This is the reason the Kewevkapaya and the Nde Apache formed such a close alliance and their homelands were as one and the same.

The Kewevkapaya lived as the Apache in small clans. When the Kewevkapaya and Apache used the Superstition mountains, it was not as a large tribal unit as most white people assume. It was as one or two or three clans who would at certain times of the year travel to other mountains and valleys to gather food, medecine and supplies. They built no permanant shelters while they were traveling. Sometimes individuals would travel to different mountains like the Superstitions for power or to gather herbs and medicine for sacred ceremonies.

Not all Apache would enter the Superstition range, as I mentioned before, they feared a fierce tribe of people they believed lived there and a diety they were also afraid of. Not all Apache shared that belief however. Clans of the Pinal, Tonto and Apache Peaks Apache would at times use the Superstition mountains.

If you were to go to a place nearby what is today called, top of the world, near Globe and Superior, you would be nearby a place of former great importance to the Apache and Kewevkapaya. From this place high in the mountain, you could travel southeast into the Pinal mountains, south west into the Dripping Springs mountains and northwest into the Superstition mountains. It was as a crossroads into those three ranges and there were trails that led into all of those ranges. The Army did not learn of this secret until long after the reservations had been established. Apache fleeing or leaving San Carlos unnoticed would often use these routes to move secretly into those mountains.

spirit


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 Post subject: Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:24 am 

Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 9:17 am
Posts: 32
Thank you spirit for that reply. It explains a lot and fills in a lot of the blank spots I've had. I may have read 20 books or more about the Yavapai Apache-Mohaves and why they were considred Apache, but never understood what any of them were talking about. You make it clear in just a couple short sentences. Edward Curtis and his co authors were right in their findings, they just explained it in a confusing white mans sort of way.

You mentioned some individual Apache would travel into the mountains for "power" and to collect "medicine". That statement grabs my interest right away. Is there a way you might explain what you mean by traveling to mountains for power and medicine?
I understand if this is something you cant go into.

thank you, Steven Trost


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 Post subject: Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:50 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Natanes mountains
Steven,

Skee-kizzen, I only have a short time but will try and answer your questions as much as I can.

The words, power, spirits and sacred have different meanings to the Apache than they do to the white man. To understand what an Apache is doing and why he would travel to distant mountain ranges to gather medecine and herbs and to seek power and spirit knowledge, you would have to forget what you think the words power, spirit and sacred mean, and learn them from the Apache perspective. That would take a very long time and many people cannot accept the concept of power and sacredness as an Apache may know them.

Places of power and spirit are sacred, but not always sacred to a whole band, or a clan or even a family. Many times they are scared only to an individual or maybe one or two others. The names and locations of these sacred places are sometimes not made known to those outside the individuals, not even to their own clan.

An individual, or maybe a small group might travel to these sacred places at certain times to gather sacred herbs, pollen, water, medicine plants and roots. And to perform prayer ritual, ceremony, or leave an offering. There were places like this in every range of mountains the Apache used.

Medicine and herbs and sacred pollen have to be gathered with great reverence, thought and prayer or the spirit in the medicine would not be good. I travel many miles from my home to a sacred place to gather the black medicine, devil medicine and the osha root, the, i-zeho-chi-ne, chin-de-i-ze and the ha-chi-de. Also to a place to gather the sacred hadintin (pollen) which is used in all ceremony and ritual of the Apache.

ka-dish-day hi-disho.

spirit


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 Post subject: Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:38 am 
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Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 10:35 am
Posts: 46
Spirit

Thank You for Your Words, you have answered many questions I was going to ask. Speaking about these things can be difficult since it is of such a personal nature, and what is in ones Heart cannot be hidden from what can be felt around us, and written words sometimes fall short of meaning. There is much more that I would ask, but is not appropriate in open forum so I will limit my questions.

My understanding that when speaking with spirits one should speak from the Heart with Respect and not be fearful; would this be proper for the spirits in the Superstitions?

I know some are content with words of Respect and Recognition, would an offering of something personal be welcomed?

I felt a sense of watching and waiting in a particular area we were in and would hope that the presence of that area would allow us to find what was placed there so long ago so we can achieve some good with it. I am not sure if they would be willing to help us, at least not try to cause us harm.

May our paths cross in Friendship.


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 Post subject: Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:02 am 

Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 9:17 am
Posts: 32
spirit,

Thank you for that meaningful explanation. You said so much in just a few words. I feel like I'm gettig a good understanding of what you are talking about. Like Somero, I have a lot more I would want to ask you but don't think it would be apropriate on the open forum. You have my email from a previous post of mine, if you can talk any farther please email me, I feel like I'm finally beginning to understand the apache and I would like to hear more.

Somero,

I couldn't have said it any better. Great comments.

Steven Trost


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 Post subject: Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:58 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:50 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Natanes mountains
Somero,

Your words seem to show you have been touched by a spirit power and you do not know what to do. I cannot help you, no one can help you, you must decide for yourself what you must do. You are correct, speaking with a spirit power should always come from your heart, that is most important. Speaking with respect and without fear is also important. I think you already know what to do.

If your words are truly from the heart and you are sincere in your motives, an offering is always appropriate, any offering. It is the same in the Superstition mountains as in all mountains. Never think however, that an offering helps to gain the knowledge you seek or will buy you what you want to obtain. The white man feels he can buy his religion by placing a few coins in a box or on a plate. That is not the way with the di-yin-tah, the chidin bi-yi.

I can only offer you these words. Each morning I say a prayer to Kuterastan (Usen, God, the one who lives above) I pray to the east and leave a little hadintin (sacred pollen) to the four directions. It is an old Apache prayer, I use it many times when in the mountains for guidance. It often helps me and sometimes I learn the way I should go.

"Beh nashololezh nde, nasheo shichisigo zho dolez, shituh gozho dolezh pogo hadishndi."

Translated literally to English it means, "I walk with people, ahead of me all is well, ahead of me is goodness, lead me on."

It's meaning does not translate well.
"I walk with people" means, "I am alive".
"ahead of me all is well" means, "I want to live in peace".
"ahead of me is goodness" means, "I want to live where good things are"
"lead me on" means, "show me what I am to do"

It is a simple prayer, but says so much and asks only for guidance. If my heart and thoughts are sincere, Kuterastan may send Nastelh, maker of dreams and visions to me with his answer.

ka-dish-day

spirit


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 Post subject: Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:00 am
Posts: 658
These are interesting conversations and add to many things I've been reading for the past year or two.

One thing you said (spirit) however rubs me a little the wrong way...

Quote:
The white man feels he can buy his religion by placing a few coins in a box or on a plate.


I would only suggest caution in making such a wide generalization as that. I know MANY religious and spiritual "white men" who place coins in a box or on a plate soley for the purpose of helping support the religion they believe in and/or to help those who are less fortunate than themselves.


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