Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Moderator: somehiker

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:36 am

cubfan64 wrote:These are interesting conversations and add to many things I've been reading for the past year or two.

One thing you said (spirit) however rubs me a little the wrong way...
The white man feels he can buy his religion by placing a few coins in a box or on a plate.
I would only suggest caution in making such a wide generalization as that. I know MANY religious and spiritual "white men" who place coins in a box or on a plate soley for the purpose of helping support the religion they believe in and/or to help those who are less fortunate than themselves.
Paul,

These are informative and interesting posts.

Being sensitive to the religions and beliefs of the Apache is, apparently, a one-way street.

Take care,

Joe

User avatar
cubfan64
Posts: 689
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:00 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by cubfan64 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:19 pm

I prefer to think that as humans, we all get swept up sometimes in making broad generalizations that by definition alone aren't accurate (meaning there are exceptions to every generalization).

I doubt "spirit" meant that small part of his statement to be taken the way I did - at least I hope not. I think that while there are many differences between religions and beliefs, sometimes we focus on those differences far too much and forget about the many similarities that could bring us closer together spiritually.

Anyways - I don't want to derail the thread or send it off into the direction of religion because religion and political discussions on forums rarely lead anywhere good.

Please carry on with the thread topic

User avatar
Somero
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 10:35 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by Somero » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:29 pm

cubfan64 wrote:These are interesting conversations and add to many things I've been reading for the past year or two.

One thing you said (spirit) however rubs me a little the wrong way...
The white man feels he can buy his religion by placing a few coins in a box or on a plate.
I would only suggest caution in making such a wide generalization as that. I know MANY religious and spiritual "white men" who place coins in a box or on a plate soley for the purpose of helping support the religion they believe in and/or to help those who are less fortunate than themselves.
To keep things on an even keel, This would just be a reference to how one makes an offering. ie: putting money on the plate just because everyone else does, instead of putting money on the plate for the benefit of ones belief. At least that's how I see it.
It is not a one-way street, it is how a person defines there own experience with God and what they feel in their heart and how they should worship.

User avatar
Somero
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 10:35 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by Somero » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 pm

Spirit

Thank you again, I understand what you are telling me.

I hope that we can meet someday and speak together.

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:59 pm

Somero,

"The white man feels he can buy his religion by placing a few coins in a box or on a plate."

I am offended and insulted by Biyideel's characterization on the white man's offering in his church. I send $100 to a church here every
month and I don't even go to church. I don't do it because I see someone else doing it, and I don't believe there is enough money in the
world to buy me that ticket to heaven.

Holy Ground is a blending of the white man's god and the Apache's Yoosen. In that respect, I believe it is also a blending of the churches. In disrespecting the white man's religion, you also disrespect the Apache Holy Ground......They are one.

I could be wrong, but I believe any dii yin would agree with what I have just written.

Although I am very familiar with the subjects being discussed here, this will be my last post in this topic.

Take care,

Joe

User avatar
Somero
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 10:35 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by Somero » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:23 pm

Joe

Then that $100 dollars a month must come from the heart and you are a good man for doing so.

It is your right to be offended, I did not read it that way. I read "If you make an offering, make it from the heart" It just comes down to perspective. The same with "Holy" or "Sacred" it comes down to ones own perspective. Just keep in mind, the white mans history with religion is not exactly the greatest, and many people tend to view it differently, and giving money does not seem like a viable offering to God. "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" Pretty Simple when you think about it.

As I stated earlier about feeling watched, I could sense the presence in that area, is it "Sacred" to me? No, but it is important to someone or some power that resides there. So I wanted to know what would be the proper way to show Respect and ask not to be harmed and maybe helped or protected. Different cultures have their own way of showing Respect, some require a personal offering and speaking softly others can be speaking boldly and affirmative just to let ones presence be known.
After all if someone came to your home you would want them to ask before poking around your yard and if they did not ask, you would drive them away or call the police. So speaking from the Heart and making an offering from the Heart would be best. When one speaks and gives gifts from the Heart it cannot be false if your intentions are Honorable.

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:36 pm

Somero wrote:Joe

Then that $100 dollars a month must come from the heart and you are a good man for doing so.

It is your right to be offended, I did not read it that way. I read "If you make an offering, make it from the heart" It just comes down to perspective. The same with "Holy" or "Sacred" it comes down to ones own perspective. Just keep in mind, the white mans history with religion is not exactly the greatest, and many people tend to view it differently, and giving money does not seem like a viable offering to God. "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" Pretty Simple when you think about it.

As I stated earlier about feeling watched, I could sense the presence in that area, is it "Sacred" to me? No, but it is important to someone or some power that resides there. So I wanted to know what would be the proper way to show Respect and ask not to be harmed and maybe helped or protected. Different cultures have their own way of showing Respect, some require a personal offering and speaking softly others can be speaking boldly and affirmative just to let ones presence be known.
After all if someone came to your home you would want them to ask before poking around your yard and if they did not ask, you would drive them away or call the police. So speaking from the Heart and making an offering from the Heart would be best. When one speaks and gives gifts from the Heart it cannot be false if your intentions are Honorable.
Somero,

"Just keep in mind, the white mans history with religion is not exactly the greatest"

Perhaps you would prefer the Aztec's religion. No religion is ever "the greatest" when it has complete power over the population.

I don't know that the offerings of money, are to God. From my own personal understanding, the money is a donation to men, who are doing good works for their God. That seems plenty simple to me.

"After all if someone came to your home you would want them to ask before poking around your yard and if they did not ask, you would drive them away or call the police."

The Superstitions are no more the "home" of the Apache, than Safeway is my home. Power resides everywhere. It is not unique to the Superstitions, or any other place. Many people feel this power and presence in their church or in their boat on the oceans. If we ever get to Mars, the astronauts will probably feel it there.

The Apache, like many other tribes, never stayed in one place for very long. It was a matter of not using up the resources (food) in a single place. They harvested whatever food source was available, in whatever quantity and season it could be found, and moved on to the next.......Safeway.

The Apache at San Carlos never had an interest in the Superstitions as a home or any kind of sacred place. At least, no more than they revered all of the earth.

Just my opinion, based on the history of the Apache and the Southwest that I have been reading and learning for years. Before someone jumps in and states the obvious, books are not my only source.

Take care,

Joe

User avatar
Somero
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 10:35 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by Somero » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:40 am

Perhaps you would prefer the Aztec's religion.
That was there idea of religion; human sacrifice was the “norm” for them. The other side of the coin is a religion which teaches “Turn the other cheek” and we know how often that did not happen around the world. I seem to have read somewhere the Spanish had a hand in the downfall of the Aztecs and they did it in the name of God.

No religion is ever "the greatest" when it has complete power over the population.
Never heard of a Buddhist uprising, although I could be wrong. I think centralized power in governments is more the issue and if you throw religious zealots in the mix it gets even worse.

I don't know that the offerings of money, are to God. From my own personal understanding, the money is a donation to men, who are doing good works for their God.
I agree with this, but if you are not familiar with this practice it may seem you are offering money to God. There are people who believe they can buy favor with a church hoping that they will put in a “good word” for them.

After all if someone came to your home you would want them to ask before poking around your yard and if they did not ask, you would drive them away or call the police.
I made this statement in regards to Spirits, Entity’s, Ghost’s or whatever you would like to call them. Like I said I wanted to know the proper way to speak with them since cultures are different. Some believe speaking proudly and yelling a bit arrogantly is best, while others speak quietly with reverence and others, as if speaking to an elder. The one common thread is Respect. Also if an offering is appropriate, again different cultures different ideas and an offering may be offensive from an outsider.

The Superstitions are no more the "home" of the Apache, than Safeway is my home.
Nowhere in my post did I mention any specific person or groups, for all we know an area could be important to Nanuk of the North when he migrates down for the winter.

Just my opinion, based on the history of the Apache and the Southwest that I have been reading and learning for years. Before someone jumps in and states the obvious, books are not my only source.
It is always your opinion and the way you represent it. Like you are talking down to us with your absolute statement of facts and there can be no room for ideas out of the box. For instance what if a group of Navajo stayed in the Superstitions for a season or two and something happened to them and they left and decided never to return and told everyone that there were too many Spirits dwelling there for people to live. Just a random example of a thought that probably never happened but could have. My point is Joe you are making it very difficult for people to post their opinions without you jumping all over them and throwing what you know in everyone’s face. Your opinions are valid but not the only ones. This is not a contest on who knows best, it's a forum for putting ideas out in the open for polite discussion. Honestly I am hesitant to discuss any of my ideas in open forum since our "train wreck" thread. Looking forward to you ripping this post apart as well.

Although I am very familiar with the subjects being discussed here, this will be my last post in this topic.
I did not believe this statement one bit, and I was right.

StevenTrost
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 9:17 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by StevenTrost » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:16 pm

Somero,

Spirit wrote in his post, The white man feels he can buy his religion by placing a few coins in a box or on a plate. That is not the way with the di-yin-tah, the chidin bi-yi.

I took that to mean, and it seems you did also, the spirits or ghosts are not gods and giving money to them like the white men do in their churches is not their way.

Money has one purpose and one purpose only, to buy something. You cant wear it, you cant eat it, you cant make clothes out of it. I can see someone not used to the idea of giving money to a god not understanding the whole concept.

If someone is hungry why not give them food ? If someone is cold why not give them a coat ? If someone is lonely or in prison why not go visit them ? If someone is sick why not give them a ride to a doctor or hospital ?

What is the concept of giving a church money for all these people ? Isn't there anyone in your neighborhood that needs help ? Arent there any homeless people where you live ? Arent there any hungry people in your neighborhood ? Are all the poor and elderly in perfect health in your community ?

The concept of giving money to a church so they can help people when you have homeless, hungry, cold and sick people all around you must seem strange to someone who probably never thought about giving money in place of the real thing.

I have to admit, I'm ashamed to say I have given money to my church and then looked the other way when I saw a homeless person laying on the sidewalk and walked right past and did nothing. All because I felt I had already done my good deed, I had given money out of the goodness of my heart.

Maybe I'm wrong but maybe spirit hit a nerve. I know he did with me. Thats just my opinion and the way I see it.

Steven Trost
Last edited by StevenTrost on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Edward S. Curtis books and stories

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:18 pm

Somero,

[Although I am very familiar with the subjects being discussed here, this will be my last post in this topic.
I did not believe this statement one bit, and I was right.]

When someone directs a post and comments to me, I feel it is only polite to respond.

Steven,

"Spirit wrote in his post, The white man feels he can buy his religion by placing a few coins in a box or on a plate. That is not the way with the di-yin-tah, the chidin bi-yi.

I took that to mean, and it seems you did also, the spirits or ghosts are not gods and giving money to them like the white men do in their churches is not their way."

There are many Christians among the people today. Is it not there way?

Take care,

Joe

Post Reply