The Peralta-Fish Map

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Choto
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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:05 am

So, I will start again with an apology for the genealogy that I posted. Without adding to the confusion, I can only explain it as reaching a genealogical fork in the road with two seemingly identical paths and choosing incorrectly.

On a positive note, the mistake was well understood by my source, Cristobal Peralta's cousin, and corrected.

The corrected genealogy.

Pedro + Francisca Ortiz
Teodoro + Eulalia Cruz
Cristobal + Emilia Arvisu

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:57 pm

We now have the corrected genealogy back to Cristobal's grandfather, Pedro Peralta and connected to him, the tale of an Apache massacre "around 1840" . It may have been as early as 1840.
I would suggest 1848 or 1849, when the Chiricahua "ravaged Sonora".

"The situation could not have been worse for the Mexican people, and yet the Chiricahua victories in 1848 were surpassed by those the following year. In the winter and early spring Chokonen leaders Miguel Narbona, Yrigollen, and Esquinaline joined with the omnipotent Chihenne leader Mangas Coloradas and ravaged Sonora, extending their raids deeper into the interior. On January 12, 1849, they massacred a force of twenty Sonorans near Ures, the state capital. Later that month Chiricahuas slaughtered thirty-five people at Cumpas and captured several citizens".


Geronimo and the end of the Apace Wars
p.38

"As the Apache continued their retreat north, their war party now swelled to two hundred, national guard troops from Cumpas ambushed them; another thirty-four men lost their lives to the Apache lance, bow, and rifle."

Mangas Coloradas
p.162

"...when their Hacienda at San Juan Bautista, was being attacked by the Apache".
Text: Cousin of Cristobal Peralta.

more...

"The gold craze which swept the eastern United States when news of this gold strike spread is well known to North Americans. Not so well known is the fact that Mexicans and Sonorans in particular, participated in the Gold Rush in very large numbers, and with the advantage of an earlier start from a closer starting point. The great western historian H. H. Bancroft (1884:II:670-671) emphasized the part played by the gold fever in leaving Sonora prostrate before Apache attacks, but failed to correlate this general condition with the specific abandonment of Tubac. R. H. Mattison (1946:288289) did recognize that emigration to California did play some part in the abandonment of southern Arizona.

In 1848 there were no international boundaries barring Mexicans from joining the rush for the California gold fields. The treaty ending hostilities had not been signed until February 2 of that year (Bancroft 1885:V:540). There had not been time yet for the United States to establish customs barriers and passport regulations around California which was not yet a state. To the Sonorans, California was still a neighbor and somewhat familiar territory as well as a peaceful land unplagued by hostile Apaches. So thousands of people 613hurried to partake of the rich bonanza. Helpless to stop their emigration, Sonoran officials at the time recognized that the attraction of California lay as much in its security as in its gold (El Sonorense Feb. 21, 1849:2:2). Later the flood of United States emigrants greatly outnumbered the Sonorans, and the ethnocentric socio-political dominance of the North Americans pushed them away from the richer diggings, but for a few months the Sonorans had the edge on the bumptious Yankees. When the first party of North Americans to reach California via the southern route in 1849 reached the great bend of the Gila River in January it encountered a "large party" of Sonorans headed for California. The Mexicans urged the North Americans to travel with them because of their great fear of Apaches (Nevins 1939:370). This Sonoran emigrant caravan may have numbered 1,200 persons (McKelvey 1944:1045)."

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by cuzzinjack » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:09 pm

Hello Choto,

It is great to read your posts! It is refreshing to see someone so interested in the mystery of the Peralta mines and the early explorers. Things were a lot different when the Santa Cruz and San Pedro Rivers were still flowing and boats could be brought up the Gila all the way to the Casa Grande ruins. The meso-American highway system extended up the Santa Cruz, San Pedro, and Gila, all the way to Cibola. Thank you very much for posting the original Peralta-Fish Map; that is a jackpot. You and I have reached different conclusions, but we know that the Peralta's and the mines were real, and we are in the same general area. However, I do not believe that they are in the wilderness area. My goal has been to use geology to prove their existence. Please check out my thread on Chichilticale; you may be very interested: http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... b6bb67a9ca

cuzzinjack

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by jhowlett » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:11 pm

Hey Choto Great information. Remember a few day ago I posted about " The Killer Mountains" If you remember I mentioned about Don Jaun Bautista de Anza being buried their. Maybe in 1965 as Gentry wrote about Glen Magell going there, maybe he was nosing around the right place but did not know it? I think Arizpe is more important than we realize. Maybe the "DON" is not Peralta but rather they really are the " de Anza" stones? Wayne you and Choto need to take a road trip to the church in Arizpe and look in closets under floorboards and basements. You would assume there is nothing there, but Wayne who do you know
that has been there since Magell in 1965? And how much really good snooping has anyone done. You never know? Hell de Anza was the Governor regent of that area when all this was coming down. Jeff.











































bau

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by jhowlett » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:11 pm

Hey Choto Great information. Remember a few day ago I posted about " The Killer Mountains" If you remember I mentioned about Don Jaun Bautista de Anza being buried their. Maybe in 1965 as Gentry wrote about Glen Magell going there, maybe he was nosing around the right place but did not know it? I think Arizpe is more important than we realize. Maybe the "DON" is not Peralta but rather they really are the " de Anza" stones? Wayne you and Choto need to take a road trip to the church in Arizpe and look in closets under floorboards and basements. You would assume there is nothing there, but Wayne who do you know
that has been there since Magell in 1965? And how much really good snooping has anyone done. You never know? Hell de Anza was the Governor regent of that area when all this was coming down. Jeff.











































bau

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:23 am

cuzzinjack wrote:Hello Choto,

It is great to read your posts! It is refreshing to see someone so interested in the mystery of the Peralta mines and the early explorers. Things were a lot different when the Santa Cruz and San Pedro Rivers were still flowing and boats could be brought up the Gila all the way to the Casa Grande ruins. The meso-American highway system extended up the Santa Cruz, San Pedro, and Gila, all the way to Cibola. Thank you very much for posting the original Peralta-Fish Map; that is a jackpot. You and I have reached different conclusions, but we know that the Peralta's and the mines were real, and we are in the same general area. However, I do not believe that they are in the wilderness area. My goal has been to use geology to prove their existence. Please check out my thread on Chichilticale; you may be very interested: http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... b6bb67a9ca

cuzzinjack
cuzzinjack,
I read thru your site several times and think that your argument is well thought and easy enough to follow. Not sure that I would brand Marcos a liar as much of the confusion can be explained. I would look at the population of Mexico City in 1539 (not an easy thing to find). Plagues in 1532 and 1538 may have reduced numbers enough to warrant the comparison and the native trade center that was discovered may have experienced temporary spikes in populations. Just a thought.

Yes, I am now convinced that the Peraltas did mine the Superstitions and that they left behind a trove of gold ore. The real challenge is getting academia to listen.

You wrote:

3) Several pit locations have been found seismically, although it is not known what century the pits were from.

Will please you expand on this?

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that your ideas about goldfield are correct.

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:37 am

jhowlett wrote:Hey Choto Great information. Remember a few day ago I posted about " The Killer Mountains" If you remember I mentioned about Don Jaun Bautista de Anza being buried their. Maybe in 1965 as Gentry wrote about Glen Magell going there, maybe he was nosing around the right place but did not know it? I think Arizpe is more important than we realize. Maybe the "DON" is not Peralta but rather they really are the " de Anza" stones? Wayne you and Choto need to take a road trip to the church in Arizpe and look in closets under floorboards and basements. You would assume there is nothing there, but Wayne who do you know
that has been there since Magell in 1965? And how much really good snooping has anyone done. You never know? Hell de Anza was the Governor regent of that area when all this was coming down. Jeff.

jhowlett,

Nuestra Señora de la Asunción de Arizpe is on my list.

As far as the stones are concerned, I am waiting for Ryan to finish. Once we know what the stones ARE NOT, I will jump back in. My priority is the Peralta genealogy which, is just now coming into focus.










































bau

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:30 am

Once again, the Peralta genealogy.

Pablo Peralta + Franca Ortiz
Jose Laurca Teodoro Peralta + Eulalia Cruz
Jose Cristobol Franco Peralta + Emilia Arvisu

Pablo and Franca must have lived at or near Moctezuma, Sonora in 1816 because we know that their son Teodoro was christened there that year in the Nuestra Senora del Rosario (9 November).

So, our Cristobal Peralta (born in Hermosillo 1852) is connected to Moctezuma (municipatily/city) thru his father Teodoro. Moctezuma being his father's place of birth.

Those who are familiar with the Reavis/Peralta fraud will appreciate this.

Moctezuma may also have been the birthplace of Miguel Luro Peralta, the well known Phoenix merchant and the man who allegedly drafted and sold the fraudulent land grant to Dr. Willing. Miguel's brothers and sisters were born there.



"So who are these particular Peraltas those who figure so prominently in the lost Dutchman legend? The two blamed most often are Pablo Peralta and his youngest son Miguel. They were real people, prospectors and minors...
Pablo Peralta owned a silver mine in Ures, Sonora, for many years, but by the middle of the 19th century the silver was about exhausted and corruption in the local government forced him to abandon the mine. He moved his family to the Mother Load country in central California. There is substantial documentary evidence of their presence in Tuolumne County during the gold rush years.
It was probably about 1863 when Pablo and Miguel left California and went to Arizona. They held a registered mining claim on the Aqua Fria River a few miles from present day Black Canyon city, and they called their mind the Valenciana, the same name as the abandon silver mine in Mexico. The existence and location of that mine is well documented, and prospectors today occasionally rework the tailings that the Peraaltas left behind.
In all probability, the Valenciana produced a fair amount of gold, but Indian raids we're always a problem, and Pablo and Miguel were attacked several times. During one of the battles an Indian with a lance seriously wounded Pablo. Miguel then sold them mine to a group of investors from California, and they moved to the new town of Wickenburg, about 100 miles to the Southwest which was booming after the discovery of the Vulture mine.
Shortly after they arrived in Wickenburg, Pablo died of his wounds. Miguel than open to dry goods store, married, and prospered. He open a second store in Seymour when the central Arizona mining company constructed its stamp mill there in 1879. Later on he moved to Phoenix where he open a larger general merchandise store at the corner of Washington Street and Center Street- now Central Avenue - the geographical center of the modern Phoenix."


Spirits Of The Boarder IV: The History And Mystery Of New Mexico
Ken//Sharon Hudnall
Last edited by Choto on Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:48 am

MLP.jpg

Miguel L. Peralta

Image: Arizona Historical Society

The Hudnall's wrote that Miguel and his father "Pablo" held a registered mining claim on the Agua Fria, the Valenciana.

Here is the problem.

Miguel L. Peralta's father was named Ramon.
Here is the genealogy:

Unknown Peralta (b.1700) + unknown
Child:

Miguel Peralta (b.1745) + unknown
Child: Ramon Peralta (b.1795) + Maria Basqz (b. 1800)

Children:
Jose Pablo Francisco Peralta Basqz (b.1832-d.1905)
Jose Gregorio Julio Peralta Basqz (b.1832 -
Maria Simeona Peralta Basqz (b.1834 -
Marianna Peralta Basqz (b.1836 -
Miguel Luaro Peralta Basqz (b.1838 -d.1897)

The mistake can be explain, found, in the CONFESSION OF PERALTA-REVIS, THE KING OF FORGERS.

I went immediately to Arizona and there, after much patient research and a trip to Mexico, learned that the Willing title was purely mythical. The way of it was this: October 20, 1864 in Black Canyon, Yavapai County, Arizona, there existed a mining camp, the principal persons of the camp being Dr. George M. Willing of Saint Louis, Don Antonio Pablo Peralta, his son Miguel Peralta, Don Jose Ybarra, M. Bernatto Guiness, Don Rafael Machado, Don Manuel Ramon and Charles Lovejoy, a friend of Willing. Among these originated the idea of the Peralta Grant.

The San Francisco Call
26 March, 1899
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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by cuzzinjack » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:00 pm

Hi Choto,

You made some more great posts! in regards to Marco Niza:

Before the arrival of Cortez the killer, the mighty Tenochtitlan(Mexico City) had a population of between 200,000 and 300,000 and was considered one of the largest cities in the world at that time. The army of Cortez was in awe of its size and beauty. The Zuni pueblo of Cibola, not so much. Being a liar is not necessarily a bad thing; bearing false witness against thy neighbor is the sin. People have studied this subject for centuries, but it is clear that things do not add up. Castaneda (another priest) writing that Niza never got within 180 miles of Cibola was the icing on the cake for me, but to each his own.
In regards to the seismic studies, some refraction gear was rented about 10 years ago and had good success with it. It was older equipment and was doing the surveys by myself. This is one of the pits found then:

Image

A few years ago gear was rented again, it was greatly improved, could use my own laptop, and had someone to run the computer while I swung the hammer. There are 3 of the results found below. 5000 was the big Kahuna; the entire hillside has been disturbed. 2000 turned out very well also. 3000 doesn’t look as good, but the subterranean structures are rock outcrops on the surface.

http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/2000.pdf

http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/3000.pdf

http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/5000.pdf

Below is a google earth photo with the lines above labeled. Each of the geophone lines shown revealed a pit. Some lines did not and are not shown.

Image

What is maddening is there is intense alteration around these, especially 5000, but the gold assays are not great. There is intense silicification surrounding 5000 and lots of drusy quartz. That is the way these deposits are; the ore-waste margin is razor thin and the core has been removed and filled with rocks and dirt. There have been several good assays, but not enough to scream about. Many, many more suspected pits have been found after the last seismic work. I’ve run into something lately regarding the pits that is highly unusual and should have some more news soon.

It has been estimated by some that there were over 400 people working the mines north of Superstition Mountain for over a century and more; it is a story that must be told.

cuzzinjack

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