The Peralta-Fish Map

Moderator: somehiker

Post Reply
User avatar
Choto
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:58 pm

cuzzinjack wrote:Hi Choto,

You made some more great posts! in regards to Marco Niza:

Before the arrival of Cortez the killer, the mighty Tenochtitlan(Mexico City) had a population of between 200,000 and 300,000 and was considered one of the largest cities in the world at that time. The army of Cortez was in awe of its size and beauty. The Zuni pueblo of Cibola, not so much. Being a liar is not necessarily a bad thing; bearing false witness against thy neighbor is the sin. People have studied this subject for centuries, but it is clear that things do not add up. Castaneda (another priest) writing that Niza never got within 180 miles of Cibola was the icing on the cake for me, but to each his own.
In regards to the seismic studies, some refraction gear was rented about 10 years ago and had good success with it. It was older equipment and was doing the surveys by myself. This is one of the pits found then:

Image

A few years ago gear was rented again, it was greatly improved, could use my own laptop, and had someone to run the computer while I swung the hammer. There are 3 of the results found below. 5000 was the big Kahuna; the entire hillside has been disturbed. 2000 turned out very well also. 3000 doesn’t look as good, but the subterranean structures are rock outcrops on the surface.

http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/2000.pdf

http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/3000.pdf

http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/5000.pdf

Below is a google earth photo with the lines above labeled. Each of the geophone lines shown revealed a pit. Some lines did not and are not shown.

Image

What is maddening is there is intense alteration around these, especially 5000, but the gold assays are not great. There is intense silicification surrounding 5000 and lots of drusy quartz. That is the way these deposits are; the ore-waste margin is razor thin and the core has been removed and filled with rocks and dirt. There have been several good assays, but not enough to scream about. Many, many more suspected pits have been found after the last seismic work. I’ve run into something lately regarding the pits that is highly unusual and should have some more news soon.

It has been estimated by some that there were over 400 people working the mines north of Superstition Mountain for over a century and more; it is a story that must be told.

cuzzinjack
I honestly know almost nothing about the process you use but, the results, the depressions or "pits" you describe are clearly visible. My only question would be the fill material. How do we know it is not from erosion? Anyway, I agree with you that the story must be told and you seem to be the right person to tell it. Great work cuzzinjack.

So, here is a photograph of the site on Canyon Lake. As you can see, the water has been lowered. About a fifth more of the hillside is exposed. A white line marks the maintained shoreline (NaCl?). Heavy erosion at this site, the intersection of three fault lines.

If the Peralta-Fish Map is correct, we are looking at the location of three lost Peralta mines.
Salt River Mines.jpg
Image: Panoramio 2009
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

cuzzinjack
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:19 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by cuzzinjack » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:33 pm

Hello Choto,
It is impossible to tell if there are mines there without a field investigation. If there were mines there, and the entrances are caved in, it is highly likely that there is still an alteration halo around the deposit. Look for silicification, drusy quartz crystals, and lots of green rock (epidote and chlorite). It is best to look after a rain, when the colors are highlighted. Please check out my website, and you’ll see lots of photos of the green rock.

http://www.Mollymarieprospect.com

My mining claims are on a collapse caldera. This is the area above the magma chamber of a strata volcano. The magma provided the heat and the acidic fluids to create a great deposit. Goldfield has one also. A google earth photo was enhanced to show these calderas using a free program called paint.net.

After I had validated for my own use that the Peralta mines were real, I mainly concentrated on studying and looking for only 3 things:

• The geology, first and foremost
• The archeological evidence of the Peralta’s presence
• 4 maps in particular:

1. The Peralta-Fish map
2. The Manuel Alejandro Peralta map (the Burbridge map)
3. The Peralta stone maps
4. The Minas del Oro map

It has been an incredible, but fulfilling experience to know the small area where most of the mines are and to try to find the hard evidence without 1) investing my life’s savings just to have the claims stolen by carpetbaggers, or 2) give them away to a mining or exploration company for pennies without knowing fully what is there.

If my latest theory is correct, it is going to be pretty shocking. Jacob was right when he said, “A prospector will never find my mine”.

The subject of this thread is the Peralta-Fish map, and here is what the area on the map that is labeled “The rose-colored gravels are a marker” looks like:

Image

It is my belief that the map style the Peralta maps used (in the #’s 1,2,3 above) is to bring the remarkable outlying geographical features in close to the central theme of the map. In this manner, they did not need 2 separate maps of different scales. This is pretty clever actually. With the Peralta-Fish map, it is not believed that some of the mines were next to the Salt River; the Salt River was brought in close to the central theme of the map. Please check out my thread on the subject:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... c8#p106239

In regards to the fill in the pits, the possibility of natural erosion was studied and was ruled out considering the pit locations. Pit 5000 is on a pretty steep hillside and it is amazing the fill is still there. The alteration around the pit is pretty indicative of what used to be in the middle that is filled.

Sincerely,

cuzzinjack

User avatar
Choto
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:26 am

cuzzinjack,

I am going to take some time tonight to read thru your post without distractions. Aztec gold mining along the Salt, on the scale that you are describing, is honestly a much larger story than trying to authenticate a fractured fable. Your research leads to the idea of the Peraltas reopening old workings which, in my mind, is entirely plausible.

All,

Yes, this thread is about the Peralta-Fish Map. :D which is given some credence thru the Peralta genealogy.

A word about genealogical research and the conclusions made... without multiple sources, everything should be considered venerable.

Three branches of the Peralta family tree are my focus.
  • Gabriel Peralta - who went to California with Anza.
    Manuel L. Peralta - the Phoenix merchant and alleged author of the initial Peralto/Peralta Grant (Reavis).
    Cristobol Peralta - the subject of Clay's article.
While it has not yet been done, linking all three, genealogically, would be an accomplishment. I think that I understand the connections between Cristobal and Manuel, but not Gabriel. Not yet.

The connections between Cristobal and Manuel are significant because of Manuel's involvement with Dr. Willing and the Reavis Peralta Land Grant. It could be argued that Cristobal held the proof needed to verify the initial Peralto/Peralta floating grant which Manuel sold to Dr. Willing for $1000.00. The flip side of this argument is Manuel intentionally creating the fraudulent grant and, on the 5th on November, 1897, perhaps fearing pending prosecution, killing himself.

It gets very complicated.

Start here:

Clay's Cristobol Peralta of Hermosillo married Emilia Arvizu.
Manuel L. Peralta, Phoenix merchant, married Dolores "Lola" Arvisu of Hermosillo.

User avatar
Choto
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:58 am

cuzzinjack wrote:Hello Choto,
It is impossible to tell if there are mines there without a field investigation.

Exactly right. Another less scientific method is to comb thru the debris pile. Rock that has been drilled and picked is easy enough to identify.

If there were mines there, and the entrances are caved in, it is highly likely that there is still an alteration halo around the deposit. Look for silicification, drusy quartz crystals, and lots of green rock (epidote and chlorite). It is best to look after a rain, when the colors are highlighted. Please check out my website, and you’ll see lots of photos of the green rock.

Amazing. How are halos detected? Can they be imaged?

http://www.Mollymarieprospect.com

My mining claims are on a collapse caldera. This is the area above the magma chamber of a strata volcano. The magma provided the heat and the acidic fluids to create a great deposit. Goldfield has one also. A google earth photo was enhanced to show these calderas using a free program called paint.net.

After I had validated for my own use that the Peralta mines were real, I mainly concentrated on studying and looking for only 3 things:

• The geology, first and foremost
• The archeological evidence of the Peralta’s presence
• 4 maps in particular:

1. The Peralta-Fish map
2. The Manuel Alejandro Peralta map (the Burbridge map)
3. The Peralta stone maps
4. The Minas del Oro map

It has been an incredible, but fulfilling experience to know the small area where most of the mines are and to try to find the hard evidence without 1) investing my life’s savings just to have the claims stolen by carpetbaggers,

The Wilderness Area designation precludes the idea of any claim jumping. My thought is to encourage those looking for the Peralta mines and to help them narrow the search area. As far as investing your life's savings, investing in yourself is never a bad idea.

or 2) give them away to a mining or exploration company for pennies without knowing fully what is there.

My experience with the mining industry has been entirely positive. Having a contact helps.

If my latest theory is correct, it is going to be pretty shocking. Jacob was right when he said, “A prospector will never find my mine”.

Tease.


The subject of this thread is the Peralta-Fish map, and here is what the area on the map that is labeled “The rose-colored gravels are a marker” looks like:

Image

It is my belief that the map style the Peralta maps used (in the #’s 1,2,3 above) is to bring the remarkable outlying geographical features in close to the central theme of the map. In this manner, they did not need 2 separate maps of different scales. This is pretty clever actually. With the Peralta-Fish map, it is not believed that some of the mines were next to the Salt River; the Salt River was brought in close to the central theme of the map. Please check out my thread on the subject:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... c8#p106239

You are way ahead. Hopefully the Peralta genealogy inspires you to continue, to finish.

In regards to the fill in the pits, the possibility of natural erosion was studied and was ruled out considering the pit locations. Pit 5000 is on a pretty steep hillside and it is amazing the fill is still there. The alteration around the pit is pretty indicative of what used to be in the middle that is filled.

It would be a huge help if you could explain "alteration". What do we look for besides what you have already shared (above)?

Sincerely,

cuzzinjack

jhowlett
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:48 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by jhowlett » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:59 am

Great info. A couple of weeks ago Choto showed a digital image of the fish map, but this was 2 dimensional not traced, would that not have been the original?. Where does that map fit into the sequence in the Peralta fish map linage? Thanks JH

User avatar
Choto
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:12 pm

jhowlett wrote:Great info. A couple of weeks ago Choto showed a digital image of the fish map, but this was 2 dimensional not traced, would that not have been the original?. Where does that map fit into the sequence in the Peralta fish map linage? Thanks JH
Maps.jpg
This is a color/B&W scan of the original Perallta-Fish map that now belongs to the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. The other "Peralta-Fish" maps are tracings and interpretations of this map.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Choto
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:07 am

"These reports were followed by actual discoveries in mining settlements, foremost among which were the mining missions of the Jesuits. And most important among those in Arizona, were Tomacacori and San Xavier. They were established for the reduction of the ores of the mines in their immediate neighborhood, and were well appointed reduction haciendas, with a mission church for the benefit of the laborers. The famous Planchas de La Plata were discovered near the Arazuma (or, as they were afterwards called, the Arizona) mountains, about twenty miles from Tomacacori. It was here that the large masses of native silver were found. This excited the cupidity of the kings officers; and finally the king declared Arazuma a creation of silver, and pointed it to his own use. This put a stop to private enterprise; and a few years after, the great Apache war broke out, and has raged with relentless fury for nearly 200 years."

Diary of a Journey Through Arizona

1863

User avatar
Choto
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:37 am

We have Jose Cristobol Franco Peralta, born in Hermosillo in 1852, who married Emilia Arvizu (Hermosillo). Cristobol should be the same man who came to Phoenix in 1924 according to C. Worst's story The Salizar Survey. The same man who shared his family history, a treasure map, and several photographs of the Peralta mines or their surrounding area with Perfecto Salazar.

We have Cristobal's father Teodoro and uncle Jose Juan (both married to daughters of Bernardo Cruz of the Tucson Presidio) relocating to Hermosillo in 1840 after an Apache attack on their hacienda near Cumpas.

We have Cristobol's paternal grandfather, a man named Pablo Peralta.

But, we also have Miguel L. Peralta, mine owner, merchant, gambler, who may have crafted and sold the initial floating grant to Dr. Willing in 64'. Thru Willing's widow, the grant passed to James Reavis where it grew into two complex land schemes.

What most of us don't realize is that there was another land grant making headlines at the time...

"Jose de Jesus Noe was born in Puebla, Mexico, in 1805. Along with his wife, Guadalupe Garduno, and their infant son Miguel, he emigrated to Alta (Upper) California in 1834 with the Hijar and Padres Colony, a Mexican company formed to promote settlement in the region.

Noe lived at various times in Sonoma and San Mateo counties, at Kearny and Clay streets in downtown San Francisco, and in a homestead called Las Camaritas ("the little cabins") located near present-day 15th and Mission streets.

In 1845/6, Noe applied for and received a land grant of one Spanish league (4,443 acres) for a rancho of his own, on which to raise cattle and grow wheat and fruit trees. Noe began selling off Rancho San Miguel in 1852, after he realized the 1848 discovery of gold at Sutter's Mill and the American conquest of the state had forever altered the rancho lifestyle he had known.

During the last years of Mexican California, Noe held important administrative posts in the village of Yerba Buena, as San Francisco was then called. He was a juez de paz (justice of the peace) and an assistant alcalde, a Spanish term roughly equivalent to mayor. And for part of 1846, Noe actually replaced Jose de la Cruz Sanchez as alcalde.

Noe also was listed as the first secretary of the San Francisco Ayuntiamiento (Board of Supervisors). However, from the American takeover in 1846 until his death in 1862, Noe's name rarely appears in the historical record. In the City Directory of 1862, he is listed simply as "Joseph Jesus Noe, farmer, dwelling on old San Jose Road."

In 1895, several of Noe's children sued unsuccessfully to have half of the rancho land -- their mother's share -- restored to them. But by then, it was largely filled in with Victorian houses".

http://www.noevalleyvoice.com/2001/September/Jose.html



"Less than a decade later, ambitious Mormon John Meirs Horner arrived and purchased a broad swath of the rancho. Bounded by Valencia Street on the east, 18th Street on the north, 30th Street on the south, and Castro Street on the west, the parcel became known as Horner's Addition and retains that name today in the city assessor's office. Horner laid out the grid of streets and named many of them after significant Spanish figures and former landowners: JosÈ Castro, JosÈ Antonio Sanchez and, of course, NoÈ himself."


GUIDELINES


...

User avatar
Choto
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:36 am

"After his wife died in 1848, Noe began selling his land. He sold half of his 50 vara Portsmouth Square lot to Charles A. Gurley for $20,000.... Noe deeded the rest of that Grant/Clay lot to his son Miguel on December 26, 1855. Miguel sold that property to Francisco de Leon on November 24, 1856, for one dollar."
Neighborhood Historian Sheds New Light on the Image of Jose Noe

Migeul Noe Sr., (Jose's son) was involved in the Reavis-Peralta Land grant, allegedly providing help in expanding the fraudulent claim. While he and others involved were indicted for conspiracy, Miguel Sr. escaped to Mexico.

Think about that.

Miguel Noe Sr. flees to Mexico while Miguel L. Peralta shoots himself in Nogales. Both men involved in the Reavis-Peralta scandal. Noe's children filing a claim to regain their mother's half of Rancho San Miguel in 97'. Very curious timing.

MIguel L. Peralta can now be connected to Miguel Noe Sr. thru witness testimony found in the Peralta-Reavis trial.

But who was Miguel L. Peralta?

User avatar
Choto
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:55 pm

MLPeralta.jpg
Peralta, Miguel Lauro, unfortunatly the name of Miguel's parents is left blank. From this we are told that Miguel came to Arizona in 1859, that he went to San Diego until 1864 when he returned to AZ which, is the same year that he sold the grant to Dr. Willing.

Hayden Collection
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Post Reply