Joe:

"I suppose you would have to go to the markings to determine if they are natural, or stones that have been turned over exposing the side without desert varnish to create the outlines."

Is this what you have been told by those who have been to the markings ?
Or "pure conjecture" on your part ?
Sounds like something Ron Dorn would be able to date.
But having been into the area,though not as far as the markings,I suspect this would have been far more work than simply removing all loose rock and vegetation from the outlines.I think it would have required the hauling and placement of too much additional material to create the outlines in that manner.
If man-made,I would favour the "scraping" technique.
But too much work,and too far away to be used to add any credibility to the Stone Maps as "fake" theory,IMO.

"That would also apply to your thinking the hill might be too steep for a bulldozer to make the cut down through the heart. It's more than possible."

It's too bad the more recent photo set did not include a picture of the bulldozer road up to the top of the ridge.It would make it easier for me to accept the claim of the "cut" having been done with a dozer.If it was though,I wonder for what purpose ? It does not go all the way to the bottom....or any where else,it seems.Just from the top,half way down. The turn around circle at the bottom seems to suggest a jeep trail instead,which often have a circle or loop at the point where they can go no further.
I suggested two possible reasons in a previous post,but there may be a third.
With all of the other roads in the area,many being "bulldozer roads",perhaps the markings themselves were made by a creative operator,back when roads to the mines were being constructed.Maybe he just loved horses.

Regards:Wayne

Some photos from my half-day hike to the Gila.

N/W of the crossing...looking East.



The Crossing at the Gila.



Looking upstream from below the crossing...south side of the river.



The shady trail to the river.



South Butte from one of the hills on the north side.



Been thinking a canoe trip downriver from the east would be the way to go next October.
If there's enough water in the river,that is.
And I have time.

Wayne,

Nothing wrong with your opinions, but I have talked with four people who have been to the markings prior to the 'dozer track and before the fence was put up around the hill. The person who was there after those four, told me there was a mining claim on the hill now, and a fence built around it.

It might be that I have remembered it wrong, or they were mistaken, but that's all I have to go on. If you make it out there, take a look at the western end of that hill. Believe there are some extra markings there.

Joe Ribaudo

Wayne,

It turns out I was wrong about how my last information described the markings. It took place in Nov. 2006 and my memory is somewhat skewed. That being said, I did remember where I could find the information. That's the same thing that happens with my memory of history......Might not have it exact, but know where to look for the facts.

Here is what my friend Larry wrote:
_________________________________
[Subject: scrapings trip


All,

I’m attaching the three most telling photos of the trip Roger and I took to the scrapings area last week. If anyone is interested in the full set of photos, let me know and I will send you a C.D. The first picture taken on the way in is of the southwest end of the hill where two additional hearts were supposed to be located. I don’t see much in this photo except the road. The middle photo is a closer view of the southeast end of the hill and you can see a light area where the horse figure used to be. The bottom half seems more overgrown and filled in. We got lucky with the cloud cover on this and the next photo because it brought the light colored areas out more than in the photos I took last trip. In the last photo you can see what is left to see of all three areas. The 7 is much more visible than in my last photos in full sunlight. Only one light colored area shows up as the left lobe of the heart as viewed in Joe’s photos. The area in the center of where the heart used to be is bulldozed right down to bedrock and the dirt just dumped at the end of the run.
Roger and I hiked into the area of the left lobe of the heart but found no “scraped” ground or stacks of quartz or white rocks. What we did find was some light colored grass and light colored bushes (like the ones in the foreground of the last photo. It was clear that the ground in this area had never been disturbed. After giving it some thought, I have come to the conclusion that the “scrapings” were really made by planting a profusion of light colored vegetation. That would certainly be much easier than scraping or stacking white rocks in this very rough terrain. With time, the vegetation has died, washed away, and filled in with darker materials.
I hiked up and took photos from different angles from the ridge to the east. Those views compose most of the other photos. While I was climbing, Roger was checking the area below the 7 with a metal detector checking out Kenworthy’s notion that the long arm of the 7 points to a camping area. Unfortunately there were no souvenirs to take home.

Greg, sorry I didn’t get a photo from the exact same spot as the photo with Mineral Mountain in the background. Roger and I compared topographic features and determined that the photo was taken from a very high point several canyons back to the southeast. We didn’t have time to make it back that far this trip. However, there is an old mine back there I would like to see next summer, and perhaps I can get that photo then. I also spotted some caves in the area above the scrapings I would like to peek into. Well, that is the basic scoop on this trip. If anyone would like the C.D. with the other photos, let me know. Regards, Larry]
_________________________________

Hope that helps in everyone's research.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe:

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.
It'll help,if and when I do get the chance to go,and I've been offered the use of an atv if I would rather ride. Should be able to tell if the work continues...or has been abandoned since 2006.
I had checked the BLM site,but didn't see anything listed for 2010 or 2011. I do remember seeing some fresh looking diggings/tailings higher up toward the north in some of the pics taken from the Cessna that I was shown.
Sounds like Larry and Roger were also wondering about the purpose of the bulldozer work on the hill.
Whoever made the claim,and especially erected the fencing,must have considered the hill to be a hot prospect.Doubt they could have missed seeing the markings,and may have thought they had some importance.Ditto for excavating across the Heart in particular.
I've posted one photo before,of a similarly sized triangle mostly made up of a dense growth of cholla.
I've assumed the triangle was natural,but it is in a location where I believe I should expect a triangle to be.But there is also a triangular flat area/bluff a few degrees to the left,from which I can look down at a big heart-shaped pile of rubble.

This photo was taken from the top of that pile.



Although you have decided that the Latin Heart did/does not exist,or is irrelevant or fake,I have not.
And if you look at he arrangement of the words "noto triangulum" (note triangle), and "fornix" (arch) on the L/H

.................FORNIX.................
............NOTO TRIANGULUM......

and compare it to what can be seen in this photo,perhaps you can understand why I believe I'm studying the same area as viewed by whoever made the stones,including the Latin Heart.
Also why I have been sharing some of what I myself have seen these past couple of years.
All of which matches what is on the stones, in similar fashion.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

Your picture is very impressive. The orientation of the triangle and arch are completely wrong in relation to the Stone Maps, but impressive.

So you don't think someone of high intelligence, who was familiar with the Stone Maps, could have created the Latin Heart....After the maps were found and made public?

Not knowing all of the other things you have found and been convinced by, it's not possible to judge your theory.

Hope it works out for you,

Joe

Joe:

"The orientation of the triangle and arch are completely wrong in relation to the Stone Maps, but impressive."

How so?...since the incised word "FORNIX" on the Latin Heart can be found above the words "NOTO TRIANGULUM",with both orientated to the same direction.
Nor do I believe that either triangle shown on the upper Trail Map is the one referenced by the Latin "Triangulum" on the L/H.

Although the words on one side,and the numbers on the other, vary slightly in position on Ward's sketch and other drawings as well, they are close enough to work with once the purpose of the "NOTO",and it's placement closest to the centre,but not at the centre of the L/H is understood.


"So you don't think someone of high intelligence, who was familiar with the Stone Maps, could have created the Latin Heart.."

Absolutely !
And that it is both a "derrotero significado" and a "conocimiento",created by someone very familiar with reading and writing both types of document.
There may well exist two more undiscovered/unpublicised stone hearts,with additional information. One clue is the "4" within the heart at the base of the Priest,and the other is the missing "4" in the arched "formula" located on the lower Trail Map.I'll be looking further into that supposition during my next couple of hikes.

"..After the maps were found and made public?"

Not at all !
Partly because of where my own work has led me,and partly because of the documentation published by both Gary and Azmula.The lack of any documented connection between Tumlinson and DeGrazia/Ward/Aylor within all of these documents,should raise the red flag over any conspiracy theory involving these three Dutchhunters.We,as they in their day,all know and associate with others who are searching the mountains for treasures.We all have photographs of each other within our files,and have read what each other have written.In many cases we have also spent time together in the mountains,and numerous accounts of these experiences exist.
So why does nothing exist,other than your conjecture,as evidence to support such a conspiracy theory?
Perhaps when Tumlinson's journal/manuscript becomes available,who "found" the Latin Heart and when,as well as some of the other questions may be answered.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

The triangle on the Stone Maps is north of the arch and the vertex is pointed towards the arch. Your triangle has the base towards the arch.

My theory about who actually created the Stone Maps, was never more than a theory. The only evidence was circumstantial, and I never claimed otherwise.
At that, I never included Ward or Tumlinson in the mix.......that I can remember.

I don't believe in the Latin Heart at all. Believe it's a complete fake. I have one of Jim Hatt's copies setting right in front of me. It was a gift that was offered for my collection and not one that I asked for.





The placement of the words and numbers on the Latin Heart mean nothing to me, as I feel it's a waste of time. I believe the person who gave Jim Hatt his copy of the Latin Heart, was Tom Kollenborn and he believes that "artifact" is a complete fraud.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe:

"The triangle on the Stone Maps is north of the arch and the vertex is pointed towards the arch. Your triangle has the base towards the arch."

The triangle in my photo is not the same triangle shown on the Heart Stone,although it also does point to the mound from which I shot the photo.Likewise,the arch above the triangle is not the symbol shown below the triangle on the Heart Stone.
That particular symbol is very much like a part of the imagery illustrating this old book,and I believe that it has the same meaning,a small hill.





The use of that symbol on the Stone Heart and the fact that this mound of rubble is shaped like a heart and has so many unnatural features on and around it, some of which I have previously posted photos of, tells me all I need to know about why the two hearts and the matching heart pocket exist.
I have no problem with your disbelief in the Stone Maps as anything but a fraud.I would probably have reached the same conclusion,had I limited myself to working with only the Map Stones and the red heart.And once I did, I would probably have moved on to something else.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

Since I have never found any connection between the Jesuit Order and the Supe's, it would follow that I don't put any stock in your theory, especially since it seems to need the Latin Heart and some mysterious unknown/unseen additions to the Stone Maps.

That, of course, doesn't mean anything, and you may be 100% correct.

Once again, good luck,

Joe