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"RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:42 am

The Heart Stone insert.

Image

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:07 am

Reverse side of Lower Trail Stone...."DON"
Photo by Don Gilmore:

Image

It has been suggested that the worn appearance of the surface is evidence for the origin and age of the two "trail" stones. At least one author of several articles (Azmula) has claimed the two Trail stones were once used in the floor of La Nuestra Sonora de la Asuncion de Arizpe, where they were discovered during renovations by the Franciscans some time after the expulsion of the Jesuits in 1767.
While I believe the Trail stones may originally have been used for flooring in the church, I consider it more likely that the two Trail Stones were carved after they they were removed from the floor during renovation and expansion of the church while Fr. Carlos Rojas was Father Visitor 1748-1767.
Last edited by somehiker on Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:24 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:40 pm

Reverse "CROSS" side of the upper Trail Stone.
Photo by Don Gilmore:

Image

The beveled edges, so obvious in this photo, suggest that this stone was part of a vertical surface, rather than a floor stone IMO. Both Trail stones are beveled, with that of the Don stone being less pronounced than the Cross stone, to a far greater extent than would be necessary for use as flooring. They both may have been set into a plastered wall, for example.
That the size, shape and proportions match that of the Stone Crosses is note worthy as well.
One arm of each being offset and narrower than the other....

Image

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:04 am

A more recent photo, from closer and off to the left of the stone heart on the bluff :

Image

Compare it to the "4-heart" carved at the bottom of the Priest, where the heart has been carved a bit differently at the upper right. By accident or deliberate ?

Image

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:34 am

One more for today. Another shot with the reverse "D" (DON) boulder at the lower left and the "Triangle-slash" at the upper right, visible on the back of the larger priest's head.
I think it's also revealing, how from this angle, the letters D O N (with the "D" backwards), can be be seen on the face of that big boulder down there. :idea:
The fact that all of these features are visible in the same area, and relatively easy to locate by using ALL of the various stones combined as a guide, is the best evidence yet IMO, that they were made by the same group with a singular purpose in mind. It is also my opinion that without the H/P Stone, finding much of what is shown on the Trail Stones or the Stone Crosses would be virtually impossible.

Image
Last edited by somehiker on Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by coazon de oro » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:30 pm

somehiker wrote:Reverse "CROSS" side of the upper Trail Stone.
Photo by Don Gilmore:

Image

The beveled edges, so obvious in this photo, suggest that this stone was part of a vertical surface, rather than a floor stone IMO. Both Trail stones are beveled, with that of the Don stone being less pronounced than the Cross stone, to a far greater extent than would be necessary for use as flooring. They both may have been set into a plastered wall, for example.
That the size, shape and proportions match that of the Stone Crosses is note worthy as well.
One arm of each being offset and narrower than the other....

Image
Howdy Wayne,

In my opinion, the PSM's have never been inside a church, or in what is now Mexico.

If they were on a church floor, why doesn't the cross stone show the same wear? Heavier traffic on the DON stone, could answer that, but if you look closely at the DON stone, that is not wear. What kind of traffic would target the letters only? None.

I had commented long ago, that some of the faint lettering, and marks on the stones, could actually be erasures from the carver. The DON stone seems to also show this. While there are some original imperfections such as tiny holes from roots, or insects, the letters have tools marks, where they decided to take that off. You will notice that the spaces between the letters are not riddled with these tool marks.

I believe that after the letters were chipped, another stone could have been used to smooth the stone some.

Homar

I failed to get the Don stone in the post

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:15 am

I tend to agree, Homar.
That although I can admit Azmula's claim the stones may have been originally used as flooring in the church at Arispe may have some merit, he has never provided any documentation proving his theory that they were discovered by the Franciscans at Arispe, or that they were known to the Tumlinson family before 1948/49, when Travis first claimed to have found them. In fact, no one has so far presented anything to effectively counter the testimony obtained from Travis' Uncle Robert, and friends Bob Bair, Bob Shultz, and Ken and Pat Hainer regarding Travis' discovery of the original Stones. I consider their accounts to be far more accurate and closer to the truth than the more recent stories told by family members to today's researchers.

As I pointed out, the two Trail stones, although a reasonable size for flooring stone, have edges with large bevels, not the slight beveling common to flooring, which suggests an intention at least, to set them in a vertical position somewhere. If not in the sanctity of a church, where those in the know could keep an eye on them, perhaps in some location at or near the site where the cache was hidden. I've suggested this in the past, where I've included the account of Fr. Keller's aborted expedition as a clue to how the stones may have themselves been hurriedly cached at Queen Creek. The Apache attack on Keller's party was important enough to have been shown in pictorial form on at least one old map, dated 1756.

The lettering on the DON stone looks to me to have been created by abrading the stone around the perimeter of, and inside of the letters. I don't think it was much more visible or better defined when it was new, or that it was worn by traffic. The pitting is almost absent in the areas where the stone has been ground down to form the letters as well, which seems to indicate the stone was already pitted before the carving was done. I've looked into what causes such pitting in soft stone, and salt is a common cause. Salt was and is still used as an amalgam in the production of gold, dating back to Egyptian times. It is also found in deposits near Phoenix and elsewhere in the SW.

The Cross I think, is a tad overdone for what might be used to mark an altar or below-floor grave IMO. Looks to me that whoever carved it wanted to leave the impression that he was in the process of carving a cross FROM the slab, rather than only into the surface. Could this have been a hint/instruction to "look for a cross made of stone" at a certain place/places on the maps ?
Or maybe even to refer to a cross made of stone for further information ?

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:22 pm

Homar:

You wondered if the tape marks could help to confirm if the stones we can see today at the museum, are the same as those shown in the Life Magazine article.

"One thing that caught my eye was the white rectangle area on the Priest Stone. Is that from the tape that Travis used to cover some parts for the Life Magazine photos? I don't know if that has been discussed already, but it may still be visible with the same light, and a way to know if the original is in the museum."

Unfortunately no.
The Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum had copies of the stones made after Boyd Cochrane donated them, with the originals held in a vault and the copies on display.
The director of the AMMM, Lee Hammond, put tape on the same places, where Mitchell had in "Superstition Treasures", on the display copies as well.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ......page three.
or...
Paul Dean Article....http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... eralta.htm

Read the entire article carefully....maybe more than once.
Cochrane claims to have made over 30 trips into the Sups, working with the stones.

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:05 pm

Greg:

Kenneth and Lois Feltner are mentioned as having been interviewed by Mel Brower in the Peck letter collection.
Do you have anything more in your collection, giving more detail of their testimony ?

Regards:Wayne

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by coazon de oro » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:30 pm

Howdy Wayne,

What about the stones on your black and white picture's, are those the originals? They sure look like the one's on "Superstition Treasures".

Homar

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