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 Post subject: Who altered the Stone maps?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:12 pm 
Who altered the Stone maps?

For decades, most Stone Map aficionados have agreed that someone (a second author/artist) either altered or added information to the Stone Maps.

Some believe it was done by Travis Tumlinson, some believe Clarence Mitchell did it, and others (like myself) believe it was done by a much earlier owner of the maps.

The reason for so many people believing that the maps were altered, is because some of the inscriptions on them, appear to be only lightly scratched in, instead of being deeply carved like the rest of the engravings.

Even more important than "WHO" did it is "WHY"? Was it done to provide additional information, or to intentionally mislead everyone trying to follow the maps, or to support a theory that someone was trying to promote?

A close inspection of the lightly inscribed information in question may shed some light on who actually did it, and possibly why. Or... at least shed some doubt about the thought that Tumlinson or Mitchell did it.

Looking at the Priest Map... I have highlighted what I believe to be the added information, (by the second author/artist).

Image

Clearly... It does appear that someone was attempting to provide additional information to what the original author had provided. If this were done to confuse, mislead or support a theory... Why isn't it easier to understand? What reason would the second author have to make the added information so ambiguous? The idea that it was done to mislead does not make any sense when you look at it like that.

It is like the theory that James Addison Reavis created the maps in support of his land grant hoax. If that were true... Why didn't he include the words "Peralta" or "Land Grant" somewhere on the maps?

Added information on the Horse Map.
Image

Again... The "additional information" is difficult to understand and ambiguous enough to tell you nothing, without the author explaining exactly what it means.


Zeros on the back of the Heart Stone.
Image

It has been said that either Tumlinson or Mitchell added the zeros to the back of the Trail Map heart stone. How would that mislead anyone or support either one of their theories about how the maps were to be translated? Again... It is too ambiguous to be of any use to anyone.

Additionally... That would mean that the original author had left the back side of that stone completely blank. That's hard to digest. If he didn't have anything to inscribe on the back side... Why did he go to all the trouble to make the heart stone removable in the first place?

As far as I know... These are the only inscriptions on the maps, that have been challenged as not being made by the original author/artist.

Best,

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Who altered the Stone maps?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:27 pm
Posts: 110
Hello Jim
You bring up some excellent points, that the stones were altered is almost beyond doubt.
I would be in total agreement if it was'nt for the fact that I have discoered evidence that was a direct result of the information derived from the most probable symbols that were added.
The only reasonable explaination I can come up with is that the marks in question, the ones you specifically identify, were taken from the other part of the Horse/Priest tablet that had broken off of that which remains.
I do realize that it could be a coincidence, as the Spanish and Mexican presence was all over the southwest for over 300 years.
But, if there is a Jesuit treasure hidden within the Superstiton Mountains, and if these stone tablets are indeed a map to its location, then there must be some information as to the nature and amount of the treasure, so that proper planning can be accomplished for its recovery.
That is exactly the information which the six zeros provide..
As for the names Pedro and Miguel, it is obvious in the light of the idea that there is another piece to the Horse/Priest tablet, that the name Miguel was added later, as it should not be on the inside of a broken edge.

I am convinced that these are the names of key rivers, the San Pedro and San Miguel
Best Regards
Alan


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 Post subject: Re: Who altered the Stone maps?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:27 pm
Posts: 110
Hello again
I had to cut my last post short as the Ghost of the LDM were screwing with my computer.
The Sonora, I believe also identifies a river, the Rio Sonora.
Mike and I have had some energetic exchanges as to the meaning of the 8-N-P, and he has some very convincing arguments, but I think that it deserves some attention and that the 8-N-P cannot be properly interpreted without the other symbol in the progression, the heart symbol with the number 4 inside.
You are completly correct in that if this information was added to decieve, then it should represent something obvious to everyone and not be obscure.
As for the 1847, I doubt that there is anyone left who thinks that it is a date.
The bad news about this approch is that the real information that was encrypted into the symbols on the other part of the Horse/Priest tablet, are now lost forever and it was these symbols as well as thier specific placement in relation to each other, that held the most information.

Best Regards
Alan


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 Post subject: Re: Who altered the Stone maps?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 255
Location: http://www.1oro1.com
Hey Jim,

Don't forget where the two rivers curve around the side of the H/P Stone and the words "SANTA FE" are carved. Here's Miguel as well.

Also, SONORA MEX is not a river as there is still barely visible is a dot within a circle with it.

Best-Mike

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Who altered the Stone maps?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:41 pm
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Location: http://www.1oro1.com
Jim,

You said

Quote:
Additionally... That would mean that the original author had left the back side of that stone completely blank. That's hard to digest. If he didn't have anything to inscribe on the back side... Why did he go to all the trouble to make the heart stone removable in the first place?


Maybe because since the Heart Insert is the key to the end of the trail, it was meant to be kept (maybe with the Latin Heart) at a location distant from the trail maps (which were to be left near the Supers)?

Just a thought.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Who altered the Stone maps?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:48 pm 
I think it is an excellent thought Mike.

I know that if I were in their position... I would have been keeping those heart inserts in a special place separate from where the maps were kept!

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Who altered the Stone maps?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:27 pm
Posts: 110
Hello Jim and Mike
Great photos, the detail is superb.
The carving on the edge of the H/P tablet, the NTA FE and the apparent rivers looks like it was done yesterday.
The H/P tablet is shaped like the bottom of a stone that is part of a crypt monument, hence the tapered sides. I have seen such shaped stones and the recesses in which they fit. They are somewhat common in Europe.
If this observation is valid then the upper part of the H/P tablet has broken off and there should not be any markings on its edge.
If the Sonora is not the Rio Sonora but instead Sonora Mex, then what is the purpose of the SANTA FE?.
Does the journy start in Santa Fe or in Sonora Mexico?
The H/P tablet shows signs of having been in close association with rusting metal, hence the rust stains.
These would confirm the story reported by Glover of the stones having been left in the trunk of Tumlinsons Car.
The other tablets have been milled down to a flat smooth surface for the carvings, this has been done to the H/P tablet as well.
The 8-N-P appears to be just a scratching but when I observed the tablets in 2009, close examination indicated to me that the Priest side of the tablet had suffered some excessive wear which almost obliterates the 8-N-P carving. this is probably part of the original carving.
In fact I used the 8-N-P along with other symbols and determined the starting point of the tablets, following the route indicated lead me to discover a Spanish base camp, with trail markers, defensive walls and a rock carving looking like a Spanish face.
This location has not been reported, or at least made public.
The 1847 carved at the base of the Priest is most likely an addition, there is no reason to date the tablets, nor any treasure map.
Best Regards
Alan


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 Post subject: Re: Who altered the Stone maps?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:27 am 
Thanks for the input Mike & Alan,

re: Santa FE

That has puzzled me since I first noticed it when I saw the stones at the SMHS Museum. Those "letters" are not what I would consider to be engraved, or even lightly scratched into the stone. They show no weathering at all, and the pressure applied when they were put there, was barely enough to penetrate the layer of patina on the stone.

There is definitely something wrong there, and I lean towards believing those letters were put there by someone who handled the stones, while Mitchell owned them.

As far as milling of the stone faces is concerned... I don't think anyone who supports that opinion has ever held a square to the faces of the stones. They are very irregular, and not smooth at all, as compared to something like an Indian Matate and grinding tone. (Which feels as smooth as glass when you rub your hand over them).

alan m wrote:
The H/P tablet is shaped like the bottom of a stone that is part of a crypt monument, hence the tapered sides. I have seen such shaped stones and the recesses in which they fit. They are somewhat common in Europe. If this observation is valid then the upper part of the H/P tablet has broken off and there should not be any markings on its edge.


This seems like a "stretch" to me Alan. I am not sure if you are offering that as an "opinion" or a "theory"?

The difference being...

An OPINION can be as simple as any thought that pops into someone's head that they like.

A THEORY... on the other hand needs to be based on some kind of Physical or Scientific evidence that supports what they believe.

As far as I can remember. Nobody like Richard Robinson or Chuck Kenworthy, who both spent many hours studding the stones, ever mentioned the SANTA FE on he edge of the H/P stone. (I could be wrong. I can't remember everything, and of late it seems that I have forgotten far more than I remember). :?

If anyone runs across any place where those letters are mentioned in some of the older books/manuscripts, please let the rest of us know where you found it.

Best,

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Who altered the Stone maps?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:27 pm
Posts: 110
Hello Jim
I offer my last post only as an observation, I have seen similar stones in europe and tombstones seem to break in the same manner as the H/P tablet imitates.
That is where I stop because as I am sure you know there are only a few succesful ways to connect stones without mortar, the similarity between monument stones and the H/P tablet may be just a coincidence. With that said it seems prudent to me to examine all possibilities in the hope of discovering more evidence which could help in understanding the stones and possibly the people who made them.
As an afterthought some of the markings must have been put there by someone who had possesion of the tablets, i.e. Tumlinson or Mitchell, I suspect Mitchell because his motive was evident and his discription of how the tablets were discovered along with the "proof" as to the meaning of the 8-N-P, reads like a fairytail, again just my opinion.
Best Regards
Alan


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 Post subject: Re: Who altered the Stone maps?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:56 am 
Good morning Alan,

alan m wrote:
I offer my last post only as an observation, I have seen similar stones in europe and tombstones seem to break in the same manner as the H/P tablet imitates.
That is where I stop because as I am sure you know there are only a few succesful ways to connect stones without mortar, the similarity between monument stones and the H/P tablet may be just a coincidence. With that said it seems prudent to me to examine all possibilities in the hope of discovering more evidence which could help in understanding the stones and possibly the people who made them.


I follow you Buddy. It is prudent to consider every possibility, but the rounded edges of the H/P stone, seem to eliminate the possibility that it was shaped to fit tightly against any other stone(s). (To me anyway)

alan m wrote:
As an afterthought some of the markings must have been put there by someone who had possesion of the tablets, Tumlinson or Mitchell, I suspect Mitchell because his motive was evident and his discription of how the tablets were discovered along with the "proof" as to the meaning of the 8-N-P, reads like a fairytail, again just my opinion.


In all fairness to Mitchell... There were a lot of other people who had access/possession of the stones (and could have added information to them) while he owned them. They were on display at the Bluebird Mine and Giftshop for a period of time, and they were also on display at a local Bank in Apache Junction for a while. Additionally... Some of Mitchel's partners had them in their possession for a while.

Based on the story I got from Al Reser (which came from people like Charlie Miller and Bill Hidden) concerning how/where Tumlinson found the maps. Mitchell either never knew the details of the story, or he changed them when he wrote his book. His interpretation of the 8-N-P that you mentioned is a good example. I think that by the time Mitchell wrote his book. He was getting desperate for supporting evidence that the stones were authentic, and began to fabricate supporting evidence, to attract investors with. (The fairy-tales)

Now that's just my OPINION... I don't have enough supporting physical or scientific evidence to call it a THEORY. :lol:

Best,

Jim


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