Lost Mines and Buried Treasure with Roy and Beth

[marks231]

Mr. & Mrs. O,
Thank you for standing up and offering your help in the forums to educate and help in getting us off the couch and into the valley's and hills in search of what in each individual's mind is burning desire to find something. So tell us something about yourself. Is Mrs. O a free mason too? Did the Knight's Temple make trips into the Supers to hide untold treasures? Do you think buried in the ground where Waltz home was is a chest with clues to his cache he left? Did Waltz's nephew show up on records of ever coming here? Did Watlz's partner Jacob Weiser ever exist or was he a figment of his imagination? We can start with these to see your thoughts and perception's.

Mark

[oroblanco]

HOLA amigo Mark and everyone,

Thank you for the welcome and for the interesting points you raised. First, about us, well by the old sourdough's rule, a fellow can't call himself a miner until he has filled a mason jar with gold, and can't call himself a prospector until he has panned out an ounce of gold. Even though Beth and I have made our living by mining gold in our own mine, we can't yet call ourselves "miners" by that rule, but can honestly call ourselves prospectors!

We have spent most of our lives together in the search for lost mines and buried treasures, in between "jobs" that paid the bills and financed our quest; I do some freelance writing and Beth does the photography, and work at a ranch for some very dear friends of ours, so there are times when one or both of us cannot get access to the internet. We currently reside in the Black Hills of SD, but miss the desert southwest terribly and are planning to return.

Now lets get to the meat - Mark wrote

Did the Knight's Temple make trips into the Supers to hide untold treasures?

As the cowboys say, "boy howdy" is that a good question! As far as I know, we don't have any solid proof to show that the Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ were ever in the Superstitions, or ever visited America for that matter, but there are some intriguing theories in circulation so perhaps we ought to keep the case open.

Mark also wrote

Do you think buried in the ground where Waltz home was is a chest with clues to his cache he left?

No, in my opinion, I don't suspect he did that; from the reports we do have, he had hidden a number of cans filled with the rich ore, buried in various places on his homestead, but he and his friend Reiney Petrasch went and dug up most if not all of them when he was trying to help out Julia Thomas with her financial quandary. If he had left such a chest with clues, it seems logical that he would have told his friends Reiney, Julia or Dick Holmes where to find it.

Mark also wrote

Did Waltz's nephew show up on records of ever coming here?

As far as I know, no nephew of Jacob Waltz has shown up in official records; however we shouldn't make too much of that, for unless he happened to be around when a census were taken or was asked to sign some petition, there is little likelyhood of finding such records. Without his name, we have a difficult time to try to find him and thus far I have never found an actual name for this nephew.

Mark also asked,

Did Watlz's partner Jacob Weiser ever exist or was he a figment of his imagination?

There are several persons who can "fit the bill" to be Jacob Weiser, including one who actually "struck it rich" in the Montana goldfields in the 1860's and may be the same one who became partners with Waltz. Weiser is quite a mystery unto himself, for even his name is found spelled in a variety of ways, including Weiser, Weisse, Wiser, Wisner, Weisner, perhaps even Wise so the problem here is figuring out which Weiser is the correct one. Helen Corbin found one listed in the passenger manifest of a ship carrying German immigrants to America right along with a Jacob Waltz. I am not so sure this particular one is the right Weiser, in fact I suspect he may well have been not directly from Germany but Pennsylvania Dutch, which is German too but of American birth. I wonder if Weiser might not actually be the nephew referred to earlier?

It has been estimated that over 8000 people go into the beautiful and still dangerous Superstition mountains every year in search of the Lost Dutchman gold mine as well as the legendary lost gold mines of the Peraltas. Many more visitors come just to take in the astounding beauty and even a bit of the flavor of the Old West that seems to linger here. Despite so many searches and so many searchers, even armed with our high technologies and gadgets, the mystery remains. There are over 100 clues (at last count) a number of maps and several different versions of how this infamous gold mine came to be found and lost, and over 100 people have claimed to have found it - yet only one actually (reportedly) had any gold to show for it. It seems incredible that something as immovable as a gold mine could remain lost, with so many looking for it, yet we know that Waltz went to some trouble to conceal his bonanza from any and all whom should seek it, or Apaches hid it to prevent the 'whites' from finding the treasure of the Thunder god. There even is a supposed "curse" on the mine and-or the gold, so that only Waltz was allowed to have any, and the record of deaths in the Superstitions is long enough to lend credence to such a "curse" perhaps having some validity.

Thank you again for the welcome and interesting questions, my apologies for such a long-winded reply and I wish you good luck and good hunting Mark and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

[oroblanco]

Gee, what an interesting start to this forum! Thanks, Marks231.

Well, Roy has done a pretty good job telling you about us - originally from back east, but ran west at the first opportunity!
We do almost everything together, and have been prospecting and treasure hunting together, as well as working together to keep the bills paid.

Now, for some of the questions.

Am I a Free Mason, too? The answer is - I'm not a Free Mason either!

When it comes to the Knights Templar, I, personally have never seen what I consider good evidence that they ever went to the Supers, and, if they did, I would expect that they would have gone back to retrieve their treasure, and we have no evidence of that, either. Of course, the Knights Templar stories have been around for awhile, so, maybe in the future there will be some new evidence - one way or the other.

I cannot see Waltz having a map anywhere, not even buried under his bed. If he did, you would have to remember that old Jacob got flooded out of his homestead, and died in Julia's care, not at his own home - that would lead me to the assumption that, if he brought his gold ore with him to Julia's, you would think that he would have taken that with him also.

Jacob Weisner, Wisner, Weiss, Wiesner, is another enigma. The "experts" cannot even seem to agree on the spelling of his last name. While the name Jacob Weisner, in all different spellings, does come up in genealogical searches, and some in the right time period, I'm not convinced that we have found the right one - nor am I convinced that he died when he was supposed to have died, since he does not show up in the Arizona death records. I do think he existed, I would just like to see some more in-depth looking for his exact lineage.

As far as a nephew - that is a mystery also. We know he had a sister - which could very easily make him an uncle - but, we have no name, and no record. Of course, if there WAS a nephew, maybe he just came from another state, rather than from another country. The records would have to be followed up, if someone had the name of his sister. ( remember, she got to America before Jacob.)

Well, that's my start on this forum. Hopefully, we will get to hear other opinions and questions and possible facts. I look forward to the conversations.

Beth (Mrs. O)

[Jim Hatt]

Mornin' Beth & Roy,

I see Marks231 opened the discussion with many of the big questions right off the bat! No easy questions like who is your favorite Author, or which one do you believe is closest to the truth?

Just the FACTS Ma'am!


I am planning on moving some old existing topics from the Gold Prospecting and Treasure Hunting Forum, into this forum where they will not be lost in the mix of so much other stuff. Maybe you can breath some new life into them.

If I move anything over here Roy that you don't want, just use your Master Delete Key to dump it to the Cyber Trash Can.

Jim

[roward]

Hi, oroblanco,
Referring to your statement about Waltz's sister, what evidence do we have that she came to America before Waltz? I think in either Ely or Holmes's book, it was stated that he asked that some money or gold be sent to his sister in Germany. Or am I misremembering? Somewhere I also remember reading that both Waltz and Weiser had engineering degrees in mining. Any evidence to support that? Thanks.
Bob

[Mrs.Oroblanco]

Hello,

I now have my own log on (Mrs.Oroblanco), so that people don't have to wait until the end of the post to find out who is writing it.

Roward,

I was the one who referred to Waltz's sister. Of course, she was also from Germany - however, in the Helen Corbin book, "The Bible" - there is a copy of a receipt - from Jacob Waltz, on a warrant of the United States Treasury, in the amount of $7,000 of gold - to his sister. This was on 8/24/1887 - but it was not sent to Germany, it was sent to the National Bank of Lawrence - which is where his sister resided. - Lawrence, Kansas. It could be that the nephew that Waltz had was Peter Backens - who went with him on the Peeples expedition, but disappeared around 1876 - just a year or so before Waltz sent that money to his sister.

Waltz, of course, did not start out in Arizona. I have not heard of any evidence of either being a mining engineer.

Have you seen or read anywhere that either might have been? I would like to hear about it.

Thanks,

Beth (Mrs. O)

[roward]

Hi, Mrs. O,
Yes, I did read that both Waltz and Weiser had degrees in mine engineering. I'll have to do some searching to find that reference, but it strikes me it was in Ely's book. Also, in Holmes's book, he says Waltz sent to Germany for his nephew, and that later, because the nephew wanted to file a claim to the mine, and Waltz didn't, Waltz killed him and buried him, and that later Holmes found the remains. So I don't think Weiser could have been the nephew, because according to the story in Ely's book, Waltz and Weiser were in Mexico together when Weiser saved Peralta's life. And further, Weiser was supposedly killed by Apaches when Waltz went to get supplies. He made his way to the Indian reservation where Dr. Walker, I believe, treated him until he died. So many contradictions and conflicting accounts! Will we ever know the true story?
Bob

[Mrs.Oroblanco]

Hello Roward,

Some of what you talking about is also in Helen Corbin's book - about the nephew wanting to file a claim, etc. Which is also where the name Peter Backens shows up. (most recently, anyway).

I hesitate to say this, but, you seem to be quoting the "old school" idea of Waltz and those associated with him. I don't think Weiser was his nephew, (mostly because, from geological records, he would have been too old) and, I believe Weisner is not the WIESS, that keeps showing up, either. (which is another common assumption in some circles).

I don't remember reading about the "engineering degree" part in Sims Ely's book, but, that doesn't mean it isn't there - and I have just forgotten it. (guess I will have to look).

I should probably tell you that, while I have read and re-read, the Holmes Manuscript - I just cannot get my mind around the whole idea. Maybe I'm a different person than Waltz - but, if I spent my life being followed around, and then I caught one of the guys following me, and told him that the next time I saw you there, I'd kill you - I sure as heck would not be giving THAT person the information to my mine. In fact - as a parting gift - I would tell him a lie, especially if I was conscious enough to know that the man took the gold from under my bed and was intending on keeping it. Of all the things I've read, I just keep coming back to good old human nature, and what I would have done - and what I think MOST people would have done. It doesn't mean, of course, that some parts aren't true - it just doesn't make one bit of sense to me to give that to a person that has been -- a problem, and not to Julia, someone I have given money to before, and who has helped me.

On a separate note - the story of Weiser going to Doctor Walkers - a very common story - but, to my knowledge, the death was never officially recorded, that I can find, nor has there ever been a grave found, so, I agree - its a sticky subject when it comes to what ever happened to Weisner. If he died at Walkers, there should be a grave, and I have never seen that fact questioned.

Thanks,

Beth (Mrs. O)

[roward]

Mrs. O,
You're right about me adhering more to the old versions of the stories, because there are a lot of books, like Corbins, that I haven't read yet. But, i don't think we'll ever get any closer to the truth as Waltz would have told it than Ely's book and the Bark notes, although I do realize the notes are somewhat suspect in their present form. But the fact remains that both Ely and Bark got their versions from Reiney and Julia, who heard the stories from Waltz himself. I would tend to give more credence to that than to the legends and hearsay that have come into being over the past 100+ years. As far as Waltz having threatened Dick Holmes when he realized he was being followed, the Holmes manuscript is also somewhat suspect since Brownie disowned it, and I think that is the only place that story originated from. If it did indeed happen, I think waltz was just being fair, since he was reputed to be a civilized and educated man, and maybe he liked Dick Holmes and was giving him fair warning. As to how the gold under the bed came into Holmes possession, that has always been a matter for speculation, right? I mean, one version says Waltz gave him the gold, and another says it disappeared from under the bed during Waltz's funeral. So who knows? How many people knew about the box under the bed besides Reiney and Julia? If Waltz was delerious, he might not have even realized who he was talking to if Julia did indeed ask Holmes to watch Waltz while she went for a doctor. There are just too many questions and not enough answers!
Bob

[Jim Hatt]

There are just too many questions and not enough answers!
Bob

Hi Bob,

That's what you get when you try to cross an apple with an orange and a grape.

Although the Holmes Manuscript, Ely's Book and the Bark Notes are all very interesting topics, and significant works in the chronology of the LDM. There is no way meld them all into one. That is why we have 3 different topics for discussing them in the LDM forums.

The Bark Notes it at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=398

The Holmes Manuscript is at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=393

Ely's Book is at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=392

Even working together as a team with a huge knowledge base. Roy and Beth cannot be expected to account for all the discrepancies, between the three works. Let's try to keep the subjects separate, and avoid starting parallel discussions of the same topic in other places.

Thanks,

Jim