DID WALTZ LIE TO JULIA AND RHINEY???

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

Ashton,

Seems like a reasonable theory to me. Of course, that means you can throw out all of the efforts of Julia and Rhiney to find the mine.
Is there a better source, in your opinion?

Take care,

Joe

[somehiker]

Just a couple of thoughts:

If, having once made the climb to the top of Superstition Mountain (ridgeline),and knowing the mine lay somewhere beyond and down, why would these two not decide to try an easier route on their next attempt ?
From the top, they would have been able to see the lay of the land below, as well as familiarize themselves with the relative positioning of Weavers Needle and the trail that they were following.

What is the Waltz sketch of ?
Is it a map,or a view of what they were supposed to see from a point on Superstition Mountain ?
Then what ?
Or is it a view of what Waltz could see from the mine.....or from the cache which he was sending them to retrieve ?

And:

Just to make all of this debate more interesting, Gary Cundiff has put this online for us all to ponder.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... 0Story.pdf

Regards:Somehiker

[AshtonPage]

Hi Joe,

While I think one should throw out the efforts of Julia and Reiney (because their efforts lead them nowhere) that doesn’t mean the information they passed on was faulty. I used to wonder if there was something Reiney wasn’t telling us because their first attempt was up Hog Canyon. But once I read that there was a ranch house near Hog Canyon, that confirmed my suspicion that the real problem was Reiney was completely lost. Apparently Reiney was not able to show one single landmark, not even one trail that he had located from Waltz’s description – that’s the strongest case for my position on why Reiney was totally lost. Of course, that doesn’t mean his information was bad, just his interpretation of it.

Here’s my issue with the circulated version of Barks Notes and also Sims; for accounts that are supposed to be about ‘how to find the LDM’ the directions (except for a walled up tunnel and a frying pan with a bullet hole in it) are conspicuously absent.

If I’m not mistaken in my understanding, Conatser had access to the ‘real’ Barks Notes – the ones that include directions. And she apparently published those directions in The Sterling Legend. I am less concerned with ‘how many people the story went through’ before it got printed than I am the source of the story. Just because one person repeats something that does not mean that the information will get corrupted by default. I can tell someone how to find my house and they can tell someone who tells someone and that last someone can find my house. Especially when the information is easily understood (like, go north at the first canyon) is not likely to become corrupted by one more person repeating it. Obviously, there is a limit to how many people can be involved before the information becomes suspicious. But in cases where we’re looking at twice removed vs. three times removed from the source, I’m not going to be concerned about it. Waltz -> Reiney -> Bark -> Conatser- is not so far removed from the source that I would question its accuracy based on the transmission route.

At this point, if I had to choose only one book it would be Conatser.

Best,
Ashton

[AshtonPage]

SomeHiker,

There is a topic "Doodles made by Jacob Waltz" on this forum that has a ton of speculation and information.
I would post the link - but I don't know if that link would automaticaly log averyone who clicked it as me....

As far as what the Doodle depicts - that is the subjust of much debate, as you can see when you read the aforementioned thread.

Best,
Ashton

[somehiker]

Thanks Ashton:

Although I generally steer clear of debating the LDM, I do follow what others have to say about the topic,especially when it comes to discussions of Waltz's cache and his "doodle".
I have a copy of The Stirling Legend, which Jim insisted I have and read.....someday at least.
I'll have to spend some time with it this evening, I guess.
And go back over what was discussed in the "Doodle" thread.

Regards:Somehiker

[roc2rol]

well darn ! I been upgrading my computer and have only been able to log in intermittenly.
So I'm way behind on my LDM reading! Might even say I'm lost.

Thanks for posting those articles SH. Never read them before. That I recall.
But the Ludy article rings most true. Althought the Holmes article as it basis.

It evident that someones making up stories though...

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

Just a couple of thoughts:

If, having once made the climb to the top of Superstition Mountain (ridgeline),and knowing the mine lay somewhere beyond and down, why would these two not decide to try an easier route on their next attempt ?
From the top, they would have been able to see the lay of the land below, as well as familiarize themselves with the relative positioning of Weavers Needle and the trail that they were following.

What is the Waltz sketch of ?
Is it a map,or a view of what they were supposed to see from a point on Superstition Mountain ?
Then what ?
Or is it a view of what Waltz could see from the mine.....or from the cache which he was sending them to retrieve ?

And:

Just to make all of this debate more interesting, Gary Cundiff has put this online for us all to ponder.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... 0Story.pdf

Regards:Somehiker

Wayne,

Interesting questions, but based on, what I believe, are all questionable assumptions. Julia and Rhiney tried to drive their buggy up Hog Canyon. Bark stated that they got farther than he thought possible.

They did not reach the ridge line where the view of the Needle would have been possible. The directions of what to do after finding that view were probably never put down on paper.

Just for the record.......if you make your way to West Boulder, just below the saddle, there is a ravine going to the southwest, (MAKE THAT SOUTHEAST) just south of there. If you climb up that ravine to the top, there is a covered mine to the west, above West Boulder.

By another couple of coincidences, as I have mentioned before, Willow Spring is just below the saddle. Both Adolph Ruth and P.C. Bicknell camped at that spot.

It seems possible that Julia and her partners spent all of their time looking for that saddle. Once in the mountains, the directions and canyons became a confusing jumble to them.

Just my uninformed opinion, based on the accounts I have read, and the evidence I developed on my own. That would include the picture of Weaver's Needle framed in the saddle. That view by coincidence, I'm sure, just happens to be on the west end of the range.......right where Julia and Rhiney were trying to enter the mountains.

Had the two of them made it to the ridge they would have seen the view of the saddle and Weaver's Needle, and the history of the LDM might have been different.

While I have never searched for the LDM, I have always had a keen interest in the legend, and learned everything I could about it. It's always been my opinion, because of the location, that the mine had likely been found and worked out...years ago.

My search was always for the Harry LaFrance cave of gold bars and, by extension, the Stone Map Trail. As it turned out, that covered mine that I mentioned, is located right where my reading of the trail shows an X. No doubt another coincidence.

Now I will be the first to admit that my powers of deduction are not nearly as good as they once were. But I have held this opinion for many years.

Take care,

Joe

[AshtonPage]

Just for the record.......if you make your way to West Boulder, just below the saddle, there is a ravine going to the southwest, just south of there. If you climb up that ravine to the top, there is a covered mine to the west, above West Boulder.

Hi Joe,

Maybe I’m just dense but if you’re in West Boulder Canyon and you go up that ravine wouldn’t you be headed southEAST and not southWEST?

Thanks,
Ashton

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

Just for the record.......if you make your way to West Boulder, just below the saddle, there is a ravine going to the southwest, just south of there. If you climb up that ravine to the top, there is a covered mine to the west, above West Boulder.

Hi Joe,

Maybe I’m just dense but if you’re in West Boulder Canyon and you go up that ravine wouldn’t you be headed southEAST and not southWEST?

Thanks,
Ashton

Ashton,

Thanks. I placed a correction in the post.

Take care,

Joe

[somehiker]

well darn ! I been upgrading my computer and have only been able to log in intermittenly.
So I'm way behind on my LDM reading! Might even say I'm lost.

Thanks for posting those articles SH. Never read them before. That I recall.
But the Ludy article rings most true. Althought the Holmes article as it basis.

It evident that someones making up stories though...

Roc:

Definitely.
But it's interesting to read what some may have believed to be true in 1931, before Ruth's body had been found, and before so many others entered the picture with their own take on the LDM.
Gary Cundiff's site....http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... tchman.htm.... is probably the best source of documented history short of Greg Davis's massive collection (where some of it came from). We owe our gratitude to both of these gentlemen and those who have assisted them.

Regards:Somehiker