SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

[javaone]

Cubfan64,

One would think that Waltz would have concealed the Cache just as well as the mine, if not better. Perhaps the cache and the mine are one in the same; meaning that, if you ever are lucky enough to find the cache… keep digging and you will find the mine.
Just a thought.

Jerry

[Jim Hatt]

All very good possibilities Paul, but none of them are the one Clay and I settled on. I believe the only description of the vein itself comes from the Holmes Manuscript, and that the only thing he told Julia and Rhiney was that the the setting sun would would shine into the opening, and shine of the gold. (I could be wrong).

I believe Waltz told Julia and Rhiney that when they went to retrieve the large cache, he would show them where the mine was, and that you could not find one without the other. (or something very close to that)

Ely's book should be fresher in Ashton's mind. Maybe he can find the exact text we are talking about here.

Best,

Jim

[AshtonPage]

Hi All,

Jim - as usual, good question (you don't make it easy, do you?)

Jerry - thanks for the kind feedback. It's nice to know that I'm not completely loco (and sometimes, I have to wonder).

There are some really good answers here. Many are highly plausible. Here is my take on why Waltz and Weiser cached the ore:

pg 104 Sims Ely's book:
"Peralta had told us it wasn't uncommon for some of his people to poach at the mine, and sometimes they got killed by the Apaches."

That would be reason enough for me, right there. You've got people poaching the mine and Apache to contend with.

You could cover the mine up and conceal it - but the poachers already know where the mine is located. They would simply uncover it and then take all they wanted. Moving the ore into a buried cache keeps it out of the grasp of poachers.

It's a pretty good bet that couple of peons going into the mountains would be watched. Therefore I believe the Apache knew the location of the LDM. Would they have covered it eventually? Highly possible. Does that mean the ore dump by the mine (pg 109) would have thrown back in? Probably....... dang! Another indicator gone.

OK - back on track. Waltz feared an attack (presumably) from the Apache (pg 102) "When Weiser and I were working the mine alone, one of us would stand guard with a rifle..."
It is dangerous to work the mine in Apache territory because the time it takes to dig out the ore is time that you are exposed to the Apache. If Waltz and Weiser felt they had made it in undetected, that would be the time to dig all you could.

Usually, compound problems have compound answers. There would be other issues like Waltz and Weiser are getting older. They won't be able to work the mine forever. It makes sense to do all you can, while you can. I'm getting older myself and I understand this.

How big is the large cache?
pg 104 bottom: Waltz speaking "I'd say we placed twenty thousand dollars worth in the large cache..."
Uhhhh..... would that be in excess of the Wilderness regulations regarding a "grab sample"?


Best,
Ashton

[AshtonPage]

[quote="Jim Hatt"]I believe the only description of the vein itself comes from the Holmes Manuscript, and that the only thing he told Julia and Rhiney was that the the setting sun would would shine into the opening, and shine of the gold. (I could be wrong).

I believe Waltz told Julia and Rhiney that when they went to retrieve the large cache, he would show them where the mine was, and that you could not find one without the other. (or something very close to that)

/quote]

Hi Jim,

Still trying to figure out this quote button. Anyway, The Holmes manuscript is notorious for exaggerating the wealth of the LDM. I am cautious regarding anything Holmes said about the vein. But I could be wrong and that’s just my opinion.

I don't recollect it being in Sims book about the setting sun shining on the gold. I would have highlighted it in my book and (just skimming through my highlights) I don't see it. In my personal notes, there are two references to that statement. One is from Mitchell and the other is an unknown source.

You are correct on the cache and the mine:
Waltz speaking on pg. 97: “I wouldn’t even try to tell you where the mine is if it wasn’t for the cache. But you can’t find one without the other."

Best,

Ashton

[AshtonPage]

cubfan64 Wrote:
>>One of the clues I always found interesting was "to find the mine, you first must find the caches" - that has to imply something no? Does it mean the caches are just in the vicinity, or does it mean the caches somehow "direct" a person to the mine (which would seem silly to me). It's just one of those clues that I haven't been able to come up with a good explanation for.<< end quote


Hi cubfan,

Waltz speaking on pg. 97: "Of course, Helena, you and Reiney couldn't do anything with a mine...... I wouldn’t even try to tell you where the mine is if it wasn’t for the cache. But you can’t find one without the other."

In context - Waltz is telling Reiney how to find the cache (not the mine). My opinion is that the cache is XX paces from the mine. Find the mine first, then pace it off to the cache.

Those are the type of details that I believe have been left out of the records we have today.

Best,

Ashton

[cubfan64]

would that be in excess of the Wilderness regulations regarding a "grab sample"?

Would be fun to fight that one in court wouldn't it??

Yah, ummm, me and a friend were in the area with our 2 mules and we grabbed some rocks. They all looked slightly different to us, so we grabbed all the 4 of us could carry and headed for home. Imagine our surprise when they all turned out to be rich gold ore - we were shocked!

I bet some lawyer could argue that one

On second thought, the fight would be against the Federal Government, so there's not a chance anyone other than them would win

Really an interesting discussion here! Makes me think I need to go back and re-read my copy of Ely's book.

Jim - give us a little time to come up with another guess as to what you and Clay settled on before you tell us!

[Jim Hatt]

In context - Waltz is telling Reiney how to find the cache (not the mine). My opinion is that the cache is XX paces from the mine. Find the mine first, then pace it off to the cache.

This makes a lot of sense Ashton, because you would think the mine would be the larger of the two "needles" in the "haystack", and therefore the easiest to locate first.

But... If you consider Paul's number 3 reason for making the caches in the first place, which I personally preferred, although they were all good....

3) A claim was never filed on the mine by anyone - maybe they were afraid someone would find it AND file a claim on it and they'd lost it all at once like that. This way they at least had stashed away a good sum of ore that they could recover themselves.

It does not make sense because if the caches were only "paces" away from the mine, then it could be difficult for them to be able to retrieve them, if someone else found the mine, and filed a claim on it, or they lost access to it, because someone else might have already had a "claim" on it. (Hint to what Clay and I came up with as our best possibility).

I am leaning towards believing the cache site would be a good distance from the mine, along the route out of the mtns, yet still within sight of the mine, so Waltz could point it out (or a least the area it was in) to Julia and Rhiney from the cache site.

If we knew (or had a good idea) why they opted to make the caches to begin with, some other things might fall neatly into place.

Jim

[AshtonPage]

If we knew (or had a good idea) why they opted to make the caches to begin with, some other things might fall neatly into place.

Jim

Hi Jim,

There are some really good answers, and Waltz says they planned how they would work (Sims pg. 103). I believe it could even be "all of the above." I don't think my answers are the only ones.

One thing we do know for sure is that Waltz and Weisner had been told that the mine was being poached. When they got to the mine, then they saw poaching with their own eyes.

Pacing off from the mine. I really do try and keep my posts short, but it ain't always easy. Let me expound - I probably should have when I posted. Anyway, by nature, a cache is hidden, it blends in with the surrounding terrian. If you do not actually know where the cache is buried then you need a point of reference. It could be a tree or cactus with a stone in it or whatever, but I don't think the mine was marked like that. The two soldiers said they could find the mine again, but they said nothing about a marker to locate it. Doesn't mean there wasn't one, but if there was, then telling about it would have made their story more credible to Mason - whom they asked to partner with them.

The location of the mine would be a solid point of reference. The terrain can change over time, but the mine itself is solid. The cache could be far away, it could be close. The cache is probably not as simple as XX paces to the west, but from a solid point of reference Waltz could give solid directions.

This is getting good! Ya'll are giving me a lot to think about. For that I thank you.

Best,
Ashton

[AshtonPage]

Waltz talking (pg. 97) “The gold came out of a mine, of course. It was taken out by the two of us and stored nearby.”

Nearby is relative. It could be outside the area of any claims that could be filed. I will take what Waltz said here at face value. There is no right or wrong until somebody finds it – then we will all kick ourselves for those clues that we glossed over and paid no attention to.

Ashton

[Mrs.Oroblanco]

There was one main reason that people made caches back then - the LDM is only one example.

Life was tough - indians were a pain, along with other treasure hunters and god only knows who.
It took time to break the gold out of the ore. (and that holds true for any lode deposit). It is/was always a better
idea to work hard when you could (and knew the coast was clear - because breaking out gold from ore was noisy, at best)
and cache it - not too far away, but far enough that you could snatch what you wanted in much less time than processing the ore itself every time.

Also, I can see a person of that age "caching" for retirement - but like we put away our money. We don't carry around every dollar we have. (jmo of the most logical answer).

The other important reason for many - but of course, not all, was that they were claim-jumping, and didn;t/couldn't haul tons of ore out of there. Better to work it when you can, cache it, so you aren't "weighed-down" with alot of stuff, if you had to get out of there in a hurry.

Beth (Mrs.O)