SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

[Jim Hatt]

By Ely's own words he is telling us that what he heard from Julia, was what he could remember she said, but NOT in every instance, what she ACTUALLY said. Remember this was coming from a man in his early/mid 80's, about an event that occured at least 50+ years previously.

Ely undoubtedly believed what he reported was the truth (and probably so), but it was through his own interpretation of what Julia said, plus the 50+ year gap between when he heard it and he wrote it down. So by Ely's own words, he must have filled in the gaps in his memory with what he assumed Julia said, and how she said it.

Hi Mike,

I see where you are coming from here. But I believe there is room for taking what Ely wrote more than one way.

He does not come right out and say that he is relying on his memory, for what he concluded from his interview with Julia and Rhiney 50 years before.

He seems to be so sure of his story, that it almost appears to me that he was not, and was working from notes that were recorded during, or shortly after the conversation took place.

He is not making any excuses, or leaving room for a fading memory anywhere that I can see.

I can see where some may disagree with me, so I will drop a scan of the page in below for the convenience of those who may not have a copy of the book handy.



Thanks for bringing some life to this topic. It was growing a little stale.

Jim

[cubfan64]

I can tell you how I interpretted that line the first time I read it.

At the time, it was only the 2nd book I had read on the LDM, so I had no idea how old Ely was when he wrote it, how much time had elapsed or actually ANYTHING about the man at all.

That said, my interpretation was that Ely and Bark had "rigorously" cross examined Rhiney and Helena (Julia), and he was expressing that there may have been some discrepencies between not only Julia and Rhiney's version, but also possibly between different "cross examinations," thus Ely is basically saying (again in my opinion) that he did his best to piece together the stories he and Bark got and synopsized it into that short paragraph of what happened.

I believe he would have used different wording if the long time (50 years or more) between the event and his writing it had caused him to be unsure.

We'll never know - just giving you an idea of another interpretation of the sentance.

[Jim Hatt]

I just picked up on something at the end of the second paragraph, that didn't soak in before.

Ely said: "Jim Bark's and my subsequent rigorous cross-examination of both Helena and Rhiney.........."

Now the thought is forming in my head that Sims and Jim both conducted multiple interviews, and finally compared notes from those interviews to form their conclusion.

????

Jim

[djui5]

Now the thought is forming in my head that Sims and Jim both conducted multiple interviews, and finally compared notes from those interviews to form their conclusion.

????

Jim

That is how I took the sentence to mean.

Picture this:
Jim and Sims both question Julia and Rhiney together about the events.
Later Sims questions Julia by herself, then Rhiney by himself.
Jim questions Julia by herself, then Rhiney by himself.

Then Jim and Sims get together, compare notes, and piece together what was MOST PROBABLE to have happened. They did the same thing in regards to the German clues.

Both men were very intelligent and I'm sure had thought this out before hand. If you think about it, this is the best way to get the true story from both parties. Police do the same thing when questioning/interrogating multiple witnesses/suspects. They separate everyone and each cop talks to each person, then they gather and discuss what each other heard to form a final conclusion about what happened.

[cubfan64]

Yup, I wasn't clear on that in my original post, but that's how I interpreted it as well. I assumed they either interviewed them separately, or numerous times - probably one at a time as Randy mentioned, so they could compare notes and piece it all together.

[Jim Hatt]

They did the same thing in regards to the German clues.

djui,

You know how that subject makes me squirm in my chair...

Don't we already have a discussion going about the German Clues?
I can't find it. Maybe we were discussing them in email?

Jim

[Jim Hatt]

Never mind,

The German Clues topic was right in front of me all the time.
http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1298

[djui5]

[lighthouse]

Hello djui5:

You're correct in that Ely and Bark interviewed Julia seperately on several occations. The same questions were worded slightly differently, then Ely and Bark sat down and reviewed her answers. They found them to be basically consistant and therefore her story was believable.

I do have to correct you on one point. Ely never interviewed Reiney. He had left Phoenix about a year before Ely arrived. All of Ely's references pertaining to Reiney came from Jim Bark, who did interview Reiney before he left town..... Lighthouse

[Jim Hatt]

Hello djui5:

I do have to correct you on one point. Ely never interviewed Reiney. He had left Phoenix about a year before Ely arrived. All of Ely's references pertaining to Reiney came from Jim Bark, who did interview Reiney before he left town..... Lighthouse

Hold on to your hat Mike,
I don't think djui is going to be able to resist challenging you back on that one.
.