My Father and the LDM

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oroblanco
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Re: My Father and the LDM

Post by oroblanco »

HOLA amigos,
Thank you Rocky for sharing, and for the T-hunting tips! You had asked for opinions on the quality of J. Frank Dobie's info, well that is sure debatable and many folks have different opinions on this issue. Dobie is one of my personal favorite authors, in my opinion he is very good at telling stories. According to a friend of ours, his info on the lost Tayopa mines is virtually 98% accurate, the map he includes in 'Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver' is correct in every detail except one. That is fairly rare for any treasure map. To sum up, I would have to say that if you enjoy reading treasure stories, then he is a good choice; for accuracy of info on the locations of lost treasures, there are probably better authors.

Cubfan wrote
cubfan64 wrote:Rocky (and everyone else who doesn't already have this link bookmarked). Here is an excellent place to search for older used books.

http://www.addall.com/Used/
Thank you Cubfan, I did not have that one, just used it to locate a copy of a book I then purchased. (Von Bernewitz "Handbook for prospectors, &c" at a price below any other I had found. A side note for anyone interested in good ref books for prospectors or operators of small mines this particular book is excellent even if a bit "out of date" the methods and equipment are still useful for the individual or 'mom-n-pop' prospectors and has an excellent section on what minerals to look for. It is on Google books but only as a 'snippet' view, however they do have a useful prospecting handbook, the link is:
http://books.google.com/books?id=FyAxAA ... q=&f=false

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: My Father and the LDM

Post by RockyFrisco »

There was a question on another page about whether anybody ever actually succeeded in finding treasure while sitting at home, drinking coffee (paraphrased).

I have a story about that. An old friend of mine, Don Gawthrop, and his wife Val, used to manage a nice club where I often played, called the "Scotch Mist." Don had some serious leg operations and was laid up in a hospital for months. To keep from going nuts, he started reading treasure hunting magazines. My opinion would normally be that this might have helped the time pass, but was otherwise an exercise in futility. I don't have much confidence in those magazines. Don went at it seriously, using topo maps and old newspaper articles, along with the magazines. He became certain he had located treasure from the James gang not far from Tulsa. Jesse and his brother are actually known to have done some things in the area where Tulsa is now located, so it wasn't all that far-fetched. Months went by, with Don itching to go to the location. He recruited me, since I was his closest friend who was skilled with a detector. We brought some other friends in on the plot, mostly chosen for reliability, confidence and muscle. When the weather improved and Don could manage to stumble around, using special crutches on both arms, we went to the location. It was exactly as he had described to us: the ruins of an Oklahoma sandstone arch at the property gate, the ruins of a small house that had been built from the same material, seven black walnut trees in a circle (one of them was dead, but with the trunk remaining) and a "patio" paved with the same stone. It was early spring, so the weeds were dry and broken, making it easy to swing the detector. At the base of one of the live trees, I got a strong signal. I told Don and the gang, "This sounds like iron," We pried the stone paving up and began to dig. We uncovered a medium-sized old iron washtub with a slab of the stone as a cover. It was empty, but there were actually a few depressions still there in the dirt and dead grass at the bottom of the empty tub. They were about the size and shape of a half-dollar. Right then, a man came and asked us what we were doing. We were honest with him and showed him what we had found. He said the property was owned by his mother and they had heard the story about the cache, but never credited it. He lived nearby. We shook hands and left.

When I read Bob's book, he mentions that sometimes the gang would leave an empty container over the real cache, to throw hunters off. I decide to reinvestigate the site. It took me about two weeks to remember Don and Val's last name. I called Val and learned that Don died in 2008. She recalled the name of one of the hunters we had gathered. I had forgotten who was involved. Turned out that the guy is my taxman, who prepares my taxes. I called him and he remembered where the site was located. He had driven to the site that day, while I was just a passenger, which helped him remember how to get there. We plan to go there when the weather gets nice in the spring, try to locate the owner's son and get permission to dig, along with an agreement how to split the proceeds, if there are any. If there's anything there, we plan to share it with all concerned, including Val. There are stories about Frank James lurking in the area, so it might really all be gone, but I think it's worth another look.

That's a case where somebody located a site, even though it hasn't panned out yet.
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Re: My Father and the LDM

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Well, since Mr. Oro has been a frequent contributor to treasure magazines, as well as a book and some other things, I would probably take offense at the statement about being an effort in futility. However, I know that many stories about lost mines and lost treasure have a basis in facts. Some people do not want to look for these lost treasures, but they do alot of homework on finding facts related to their area of interest, from their home - we call them arm-chair treasure-hunters. While they may not be physically able to go out, it does not necessarily diminish their information.

Others, they want to do their homework, then go out and find out if their efforts can possibly come to some sort of conclusion (as in finding a lost cache, or whatever), and then will write about it. Others, want to do their homework, but never write about it. I suspect that this holds true for many people - no matter what the subject matter.

I think many states have stories and legends about Jesse James, and others like them - some are probably true to a point, some are probably not, and some may be a case of "telephone, telephone" (like the game) where, it has been retold so often, that there is some truth to it, but only God and Greyhound knows what that might be.

One point I would like to make - I never condone going on property that one does not have permission to go on. I'm not sure how you would feel if someone started digging a big hole on a piece of your property - I sure wouldn't like it, anyway, but that's just me.

I like to get information on the whole search - and when I find an area I'm interested in, where I have narrowed it down to, the next thing I do is make sure I can legally be there. I find that it is harder to get permission from an owner AFTER they have caught us trespassing.

There are literally thousands of lost treasure stories out there - and many are true - the fact of the matter is, even a "rumored" treasure probably has a basis in fact, and it is fun (and can be profitable) to get into a few now and then.
Take lots of pictures - because people don't believe a story half as much as they do when you provide proof with pictures.

Happy Hunting,

Beth (Mrs. O)
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Re: My Father and the LDM

Post by RockyFrisco »

Yes, I plan to take my digital camera this time. I agree that it's always best to ask permission. We had no idea who to ask until we were approached. I think Don thought it was abandoned land, since it was very near the river, with no sign that anybody had used the road in years. The tracks were filled in with vegetation. The location was pretty far from any house. I will confess I hadn't thought about it; I guess I figured Don had taken care of all that. Now that I'm better informed, I'll be more careful. Val says she still has all of Don's old treasure magazines. Maybe I should not dismiss them so quickly. :)

I have noticed that historic locations in Oklahoma that are associated with treasure stories have had the exact locations redacted or suppressed on the historic site webpages. I find this very interesting. I once spent a summer hunting for the few Civil War sites in Oklahoma. Every single one on the maps was at least a few miles from the real site. Oklahoma creeks move their banks every time it floods. The famous "horseshoe bend" on Bird Creek was miles from the present bend, as shown an old maps. I can tell after a few hours whether the site was a battlesite or not. When I start finding old bullets and cartridges, I know I have found the real site. Most of the battles in Oklahoma were Indians fighting Indians associated with the other side. The exceptions are the sites near Fort Gibson, where I have found belt buckles and insignia and brass horse tack. The actual Fort and associated sites are all restricted, but the private property nearby is not and those battles spilled over into adjacent areas. Most of the belt buckles were not solid brass, but thin pressed sheet brass full of lead solder. I did find a McLelland Saddle plate at Fort Concho, Texas, some years ago. My favorite find so far is a copper shoe buckle with a little bit of silver plating left on it. It's identical to the shoe buckle worn by Samuel Clemmons' childhood friend, Becky Thatcher, in a photograph at the Mark Twain museum. I found it during a three day period when the parking lot located two blocks from the Clemmons and Thatcher homes in Hannibal, MO. had the paving removed. We played one night there and I saw the paving being removed and got permission to hunt. As soon as we got back to Tulsa, I loaded up the VW Camper and headed back north. It's a long drive from Tulsa to Hannibal, but it was worth it. There's no way to know if it might have been one of Becky's shoe buckles, but then, that's half of the fun.
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Re: My Father and the LDM

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco »

Good deal!

I think you might be right about some of the treasure and historic tales being "missing" from official bios about some towns, in Oklahoma - and some other states, too.

It looks like the only places that have any real information on lost treasures and such, are the places that use that type of information for tourist travel - like the LDM State Park and Goldfield preys on people looking to be part of the LDM history.

If they don't make money on the searches - they tend to not even talk about them. (just my opinion). We do have a problem with some folks though (we, being anyone who wants to look around), because some of the "powers that be" are eliminating things from official maps - everything from old mines to water sources, etc. are being taken off official maps.
(even some topographic maps). They admit it - its not a secret that they are eliminating some of these things. That's one of the reasons why I like older maps - while they may not have every little new road, they do contain things that some of the new ones do not.

Also, just a heads up - some people will try to run you off land they don't own. We have actually had someone try to throw us off OUR OWN LAND - so, it helps to make sure that the people who may try to get you to leave are actually the folks who have the right to throw you off. That's our second big reason for checking ownership.

Happy Hunting,

Beth (Mrs. O)
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Re: My Father and the LDM

Post by RockyFrisco »

Just found this story:

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Feature- ... &From=News

Looks like more meteoric gold, as found in Australia. That can appear anywhere. Wonder if there's any of that in the USA.
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Re: My Father and the LDM

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco »

Whew!!! That is some kind of nugget, to be sure.

I wonder if these people who are looking for a $5,000 detector even realize that the cheapest detector could have detected a nugget of that size? (it would be a trick to find the little ones with the cheap detectors, which is most of the ones that are found).

Of course, just one of THOSE would do me for quite a while :lol: :lol:

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Re: My Father and the LDM

Post by RockyFrisco »

My White's Spectrum would not only have found that one, but it also can find the little nuggets in mineralized soil. It works quite well at Cripple Creek, CO. The soil has so much metal in it there that my previous detector couldn't find a quarter lying on the ground. Once I got the Spectrum, I started finding things there. I found a big nugget of Claverite (right next to the old hospital) that weighs 7/8 ounce. That's 80% gold and 20% silver, according to the local assay office there. The agent told us that it was worth more than pure gold as a mineral specimen. He said it normally comes in thin sheets between rock layers, and almost never as a big fat nugget like this one. He said it was probably a case of a miner highgrading and getting injured and ducking it out the window of the hospital since highgrading could get you 20 years in the State Pen. I like to hunt the old city park and zoo there. The coins are in layers of rotten pine needles so you don't even have to dig. I was there once when a terrible lightning storm came through and I hid in one of the old bear caves in the zoo until it passed. I used to love Cripple Creek, but the constant roar of the machines in the casinos has spoiled it for me, so I spend my time there outside town. The mining there was deep hardrock mining, so panning is useless. Any gold found on the surface was lost by somebody. One nice thing there is the secret breakfast, used to keep the locals happy. If you go to this one diner and use the right term for asking for breakfast, you get the full spread for less than a buck and a half. I'm a veggie, so they give me an extra egg. :)
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Re: My Father and the LDM

Post by oroblanco »

RockyFrisco wrote
My White's Spectrum would not only have found that one, but it also can find the little nuggets in mineralized soil.
This is another of my "pet peeves" - the ads for metal detectors showing huge nuggets that even a toy or home-made detector would find with ease. If they really want to impress real treasure hunters and prospectors, they ought to show them finding the tiny pin-head nuggets which exist in far greater numbers than the huge ones and are the ones which are hard to find/pick out of highly mineralized ground. Another dirty little secret the detector sales brochures don't mention is that only 2% of gold occurs in the form of nuggets, 98% is in the form of sand to dust/flour sized particles or even so small that it is not visible to the naked eye. But don't let this little secret get around, I don't need to get the metal detector companies all ticked off at me! :shock: :o ;)

RockyFrisco also wrote
The mining there was deep hardrock mining, so panning is useless. Any gold found on the surface was lost by somebody.
Well, I don't know that panning is ever totally useless :mrgreen: - but do understand your point; panning is really for placer not lode gold and Cripple Creek is famous for their LODE gold mines not placer. Some of the old mines are patented (private land) so permission would be needed but if a guy could get permission, it might pay to go over the old tailings piles with your detector. Some really nice specimens of ore have been found on waste piles and tailings, those old-timer miners were not all that careful about picking out smaller pieces of high grade ore. Specimens do bring much higher prices than simple "melt" price for gold (or silver) too. Pretty country there so even without finding much, you get a 'payoff' in eye candy.

A similar situation exists here in Deadwood, one of the little "secrets" is that you can pan pretty good gold right down through town, but as it is all casinos now you would likely be looked at as if you had a few loose bolts if a guy were to try it, but someone did set up a table by the side of Deadwood creek a few years back for panning lessons and people were shocked at how much gold is still there, over 100 years after it is supposedly "played out".

For anyone interested in prospecting the Cripple Creek district of Colorado, this free download-able pub, Circular 543, Distribution of gold, tellurium, silver, and mercury in part of the Cripple Creek district, Colorado,
http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/cir/cir543

should be helpful in deciding where to prospect. <You need to also download and install the 'Lizardtech' viewer, also free and a link on the same page for downloading.>
Roy
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Re: My Father and the LDM

Post by oroblanco »

PS also this pub, Professional Paper 54, Geology and gold deposits of the Cripple Creek district, Colorado, by Lindgren, Waldemar; Ransome, F. L. 1906, <free download>
http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/pp/pp54

...should be helpful, there is a good article on the Cripple Creek district at:

http://ccvgoldmining.com/Geology/geology.html

and I would also suggest to anyone interested in prospecting Colorado to get a copy of
Gold Occurences of Colorado, ISBN 1884216331 Mark W. Davis, 1990, CO Geo Surv Resource Series 28
getting to be a bit pricey but available in some libraries.

Cripple Creek district produced over 21 million ounces of gold in the 'heydey' - about half of all the gold production of all of Colorado, and geologists estimate that less than 15% of the available gold was mined. I like your choice of 'stomping grounds' Rocky, it literally IS "Gold Country"!
Roy
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