Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

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Jim Hatt

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by Jim Hatt »

cubfan64 wrote:Jim, I'm pretty certain that Charles Frederick Higham was the pen name for John Lindley Higham - they were one in the same.
You are correct Paul. Tom K's Chrono book explains that, and first mentions Higham in May 1946. Rhiney Petrasch died in Feb 1943 so unless Higham flew under the radar for a few years when he first arrived in the area, it is doubtful that He ever interviewed Rhiney. (But not impossible). Herman died in Nov. 1953 so Higham could have spent time with him.

Best,

Jim

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by AshtonPage »

Is Higham the one who first revealed the doodle?

Sorry if that’s a beginner question, but my knowledge of the doodle is limited to the short caption in Corbin’s book. BTW - the same illustration with identical caption is also in Helen Corbin's Bible, pg 134.

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Ashton

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by cubfan64 »

AshtonPage wrote:Is Higham the one who first revealed the doodle?

Sorry if that’s a beginner question, but my knowledge of the doodle is limited to the short caption in Corbin’s book. BTW - the same illustration with identical caption is also in Helen Corbin's Bible, pg 134.

Best,
Ashton
That's NOT a beginner question imho - in fact I've been wondering that myself since last night. As seemingly with everything else Dutchman related, it may be another one of those "undocumented" maps that just seemed to "show up." It may be worthwhile for some of us to try to trace the origin of that map - I'll ask around a bit and see what I can find out unless Jim knows.

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by AshtonPage »

I spend almost an entire a year to figure out on my own what Higham tells in two sentences. There’s a lesson in the value of research.

I agree with Highams conclusion that the perspective of the doodle is drawn from up above, on a hillside looking down (or across) at a ledge. Higham does not mention the ledge, only that the drawing is done from “a position above the cave”. I have to ask – why would Waltz be climbing above the work area (for lack of a better term) and be making mental notes of that perspective, considering that the terrain in this area is (in Jacobs own words - via Julia, via Sims, pg 97) “awful rough country” “so rough you can be right at the mine and not see it”? The answer to that may never be known.

When looking at the illustration in print (Corbin’s Bible pg 134) it is apparent that it was initially done in pencil and someone inked over it (rather carelessly, I might add). Judging from the divergent line widths, it appears to have been done with a flair pen. In other words, in my opinion, the over-inking is contemporary was not professionally done for publication purposes of “camera ready art”. This means that Corbin’s publication deviates slightly from the original.

That in no way detracts from the authenticity of the original pencil sketch. Hopefully someone can bring to light the history of the doodle to validate its credibility.

Ashton

Jim Hatt

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by Jim Hatt »

AshtonPage wrote:
I have to ask – why would Waltz be climbing above the work area (for lack of a better term) and be making mental notes of that perspective, considering that the terrain in this area is (in Jacobs own words - via Julia, via Sims, pg 97) “awful rough country” “so rough you can be right at the mine and not see it”?

Ashton
The only thing that makes sense to me Ashton, is that Waltz had to travel through the area that offered that view of Weaver's Needle to get to the mine. It sounds to me like he had to take a high route to get to the mine and then climb down from there to where it was.



Paul,

As far as I know the origin of the map was from Waltz, to Rhiney, to Herman just the way Helen described it. I have never heard anything that contradicts that. One curiosity about the map is that clearly, many of the early Dutch-Hunters knew about it, and that Herman had it, and obviously had seen it... But it never appeared in any book (that I know of) until Helen published a copy of it.

Best,

Jim

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by Dirty Dutchman »

Ashton,

Some "clues" i've picked up. I can't verify their authenticity, but they may answer why Waltz may have been above the mine.

"You have to work your way DOWN a water Crevasse. The approach to the mine is dangerous"

"There was a dangerous footpath DOWN to the mine."

"Its up high, yet you have to go DOWN."

"The mine was on a Hillside."

Now Waltz supposedly said to Rhiney and Julia: "You can't approach the mine from above or below, but you have to enter from the SIDE."

I personally dont think Waltz came in from the SIDE. I think the "key word" in Waltz' statement is the word "YOU", meaning Julia and Rhiney. I believe Waltz thought the DOWN path was too dangerous for "city folk" and THEY were to come in from the SIDE.

What gives me "hope", if Waltz actually said this, is the fact that you COULD come in from the side if you needed to.

Maybe all of this COULD explain why Waltz drew it that way, he saw it everytime he went DOWN to the mine?

Thanks,
Travis

Jim Hatt

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by Jim Hatt »

AshtonPage wrote:
Is Higham the one who first revealed the doodle?

Best,
Ashton
Sorry I overlooked that question Ashton. I don't think Higham ever published a copy of the map (doodle) itself. The unpublished manuscript by J. L. Higham that I took the quotes from did not have a copy of the map in it.

As far as I know Helen Corbin was the first to publish a copy of the map.

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Jim

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by cubfan64 »

Jim,

That's what I'm coming up with too. I spent some time over lunch today reading through notes and everything I can come up with is opinion, conjecture, theories, etc... Nothing concrete enough for me to say as fact.

I agree that some or most of the "old timers" probably knew about this - especially those folks in the Thomas/Petrasch camp most likely.

The theory that the "doodle" was traced in reverse is something I came across from a number of discusions. Personally it worries me a bit when people try to find a way to "fit" a map, drawing, etc... to a theory rather than the other way around - even when the theory makes reasonable sense (tracing it in reverse).

I know you said you hadn't found any views of the Needle that match that photo, but I wonder if there's any locations to the NW of Weaver's Needle that affords that view - maybe not perfectly, but at last somewhat close. I may have add that to my list of explorations to do :).

On the other hand, like I said, the idea that the doodle really should be reversed because of the way it was traced does make some sense - unfortunately, I have a feeling there are numerous places where that view can be seen. I know of one place on the eastern side of the Supers that affords that view along with a "gun sight."

One of the opinions I kept coming across is that this "doodle" may have been one of 3 or 4 that he made before he died trying to give Rhiney directions and that there were verbal explanations that went with them that have obviously been lost. Just a theory - nothing to substantiate it so I'm just tossing it out there in case someone wants to do more research.

The only link I can't find is how the doodle made it from Herman to Helen Corbin. I can make some educated guesses, but that's all they would be.

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by Dirty Dutchman »

Paul,

There is a brown, old looking piece of paper with that drawing at the museum in Apache Junction. I dont know if its the real one or not, but that could be where Corbin got it from.

Travis

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Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by cubfan64 »

Dirty Dutchman wrote:Paul,

There is a brown, old looking piece of paper with that drawing at the museum in Apache Junction. I dont know if its the real one or not, but that could be where Corbin got it from.

Travis
Ahhh - thanks Travis, it's probably likely yes. I haven't taken a "tour" of the museum for a couple years now, so I'm overdue :). Honestly I usually don't pay a ton of attention to the maps because there are SO MANY of them - I think it's likely there are only a few that are relavent - just not sure which ones yet though I can make some guesses :)

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