Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

[AshtonPage]

That break in the line between your number 1 & 2 also has to have some important meaning. Your opinion of why it is there, is as good as any I have heard.

Hi Jim,

Have you heard any other opinions regarding the line break that you care to share? I, for one would be interested.

Thanks,

Ashton

[Jim Hatt]

Ashton,

Some people take the break in the line between 1 & 2 to be an opening to a mine shaft.




Best,

Jim

[AshtonPage]

Thanks Jim,

I always seem to miss the obvious.

Ashton

[AshtonPage]

The million dollar question is why with the maps, sketches and directions did they directly confine their search to one particular area? They put a major effort into those trips and stalled there. What was it they couldn't figure out from that point?

Hey Sentinel,

That is the question, isn’t it? Especially since they were so close to the original source of information.

The evidence tells me that Reiney simply didn’t listen, didn’t care and\or didn’t understand what Waltz was telling him. Apart from Waltz scolding Reiney for not paying attention on multiple occasions (Sims 112) Waltz told them he was going to: “stop at the cow-house and point out the way from there” (Sims 112, 115). Unless I am missing the obvious, the cow-house was SOUTH of the mountains.

Hermann Petrasch talking: “We traveled eastward across the desert from Phoenix......... We walked around the NORTHWEST END of Superstition Mountain and packed all of our supplies to the area of Weaver’s Needle...." (Tom Kollenborn, Julia Thomas Schaffer). Although Herman is speaking in first person, I believe he is recounting the first trip Julia and Reiney made. My point is, Waltz tells them to enter from the SOUTH and they enter from the NORTH.

“Like the rest of us, he (Herman) was baffled only by Reiney’s IMPERFECT MEMORY of those directions which Waltz has vouchsafed as he lay dying…..(Sims 117)

Glover also concludes that Reinhart simply was not listening and disinterested when Waltz was giving him the directions – (Part 1 pg 154, 178-9)

Just my opinion - FWIW,

Ashton

[AshtonPage]

Hey Sentinel,

Think I missed your point. >> What was it they couldn't figure out from that point?

I don’t think they were in the right area to begin with.


>> why with the maps, sketches and directions did they directly confine their search to one particular area?

Herman talking: “Old Jake had left Reinhart and Julia many clues that placed the mine in the vicinity of Bluff Springs Mountain.” Glover – pg 175
It’s easy to convince yourself that “this is it” and become oblivious to other clues or even logical arguments against your area. I’m there myself, contrary to the evidence that they crossed over a ridge, I’m looking in an area where the terrain makes it neigh to impossible to access from the reverse ridge. I will eventually move on, but for now that's where I will look.


Ashton

[cubfan64]

Hermann Petrasch talking: “We traveled eastward across the desert from Phoenix......... We walked around the NORTHWEST END of Superstition Mountain and packed all of our supplies to the area of Weaver’s Needle...." (Tom Kollenborn, Julia Thomas Schaffer). Although Herman is speaking in first person, I believe he is recounting the first trip Julia and Reiney made. My point is, Waltz tells them to enter from the SOUTH and they enter from the NORTH.

I take that quote to be referring to Superstition Mountain (the main mountain furthest to the south), and that they went in from the west - either the First Water area or the Massacre Grounds area. I don't interpret that to mean they literally came in from the very North (Tortilla Mountain area) and packed in all the way to Weaver's Needle.

[AshtonPage]

Hey Cubfan,

I agree with you that, according to Herman, Julia and Reiney (probably) went in from the Massacre Grounds. But I believe that Waltz told them to go in from the south because of the reference to the new house that had been built, which Sims identifies as Bark Ranch (Sims 108). If I am not mistaken that was near Peralta Trailhead. But I’m getting so many stories in my head that I’m having problems keeping them all straight and right now I’m kicking myself for not documenting all the sources in my personal notes.

Anyway, I was trying to point out that (I think) Julia and Reiney failed to follow what Waltz told them from the very beginning. I should have clarified more. I’m getting a headache and I think I need to give all this a rest for now…….

All the Best,
Ashton

[Dirty Dutchman]

Cub,

I read that Hermann said he thought they had stayed the first night in the Northern part of Boulder Canyon. This statement was made years after that first trip when he was more familiar with the mountains. (I read this in one of Tom Kollenborns articles)

I have heard some people insist that they went into Hog Canyon first, and maybe they did. If that is the case, then they didnt listen to Waltz, in my opinion. I believe for whatever reason, they became "fixated" on Weavers Needle and that is why they never found the mine. (Again, my opinion)

I know some people "dicount" the authenticity of the "Petrasch clues" in Corbins "Bible" but, if you take those clues, and the Holmes clues, they both say to go in basically from the NORTH. It wasnt until Waltz realized that Julia and Rhiney probably wouldnt find it on their own that, he decided to take them in himself from the SOUTH.


Travis

[sentinel]

However if Rhiney wasn't listening then nothing we have is really a clue? He is the primary source, Julia was a corroborating witness in most accounts. There was a lot of smearing done to virtually eliminate Rhiney and minimize Julia.

The problem is what did they know that we don't. Rhiney had 9 months of Waltz and other than what Jim Bark presented in his manuscript, you have very little from his mouth first hand other than Pabst. Do you believe Bark with John Spangler still searching, gave up the best info? With no real experience in the mountains they knew where they wanted to go and stalled. The story is Rhiney went Peters canyon and Herman went trap canyon and south. Stories are fun and great but they best ones go untold.

Back to the subject though.......if this was found on Hermans mantle, it was there for a purpose and it was there as a reference tool for who?

Bob Garman was out on a search for Herman when he died. From what Garman says it was a courtesy for Herman and he no longer searched for the LDM afterwards as his search was based on a promise to Herman.

So where was Garman and his crew that day? That could place where Herman believed the drawing lined up.

[AshtonPage]

Hi Sentinel,

>> The problem is what did they know that we don't.

I'm taking a different approach for two reasons:

1 - Sims tells us that (with the exception of his conclusions regarding a particular map) there is virtually nothing that he is keeping to himself. Sims pg 68.
2 - Even with ALL the information and months of personal coaching by Waltz himself - guess what? Yup. Nobody found it.

This tells me that information (in and of itself) probably won't get you there. It hasn't gotten anybody else there -> and men smarter, wiser and better equipped than myself have spent their lives searching.

Possibly there is something IN the information that we're missing, just like they missed it. I hope that makes sense. Anyway, I feel that the doodle is unique and if it is authentic, I still believe it could be the "first piece in the puzzle" that might cause the other pieces to fall into place.

What I'm saying is this: Let's locate the doodle and then "reverse engineer" the problem from there because the standard - same old, same old - approach of "research and search" has gotten nobody there in 120 years....... so let's try something different, because (at the risk of sounding like a broken record) the "same old" method has not worked for anybody else. Get it?

Here’s just one approach (I’m sure there are others) for reverse engineering this: Let's say John Doe discovers where the doodle is in the mountains. We then look for other landmarks in the same area as the doodle - regardless of where they came from (Bark, Holmes, Two Soldiers, Deering, whoever) and those landmark clues can also be assumed to be legit. Then tie in ONLY THE PORTIONS of their stories that relate to the landmarks - then start piecing the tale together. No landmark in the area, no inclusion of that portion of the story.

For a start, we need to find out as much as possible about the doodle so we know what we're dealing with.

Best,

Ashton