Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Moderator: Jim_b

jhowlett
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:48 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by jhowlett »

Wayne choto Yes I agree with everything said. Lucky to have been on site 3 times in the last 16 months, you realize just how many things out there that present man has not yet even seen mush less found, there are so many hidden hard to get to nooks and cranny's, and places where no one goes. For readers of the post from far away you can try to imagine the place as it is but you just cannot. Wayne guys like yourself doing it for 25 - 30 years and still what you really have you covered in detail 50% maybe less if you count the really dangers hard to get to places? Jeff.
User avatar
Choto
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by Choto »

jhowlett wrote:Wayne choto Yes I agree with everything said. Lucky to have been on site 3 times in the last 16 months, you realize just how many things out there that present man has not yet even seen mush less found, there are so many hidden hard to get to nooks and cranny's, and places where no one goes. For readers of the post from far away you can try to imagine the place as it is but you just cannot. Wayne guys like yourself doing it for 25 - 30 years and still what you really have you covered in detail 50% maybe less if you count the really dangers hard to get to places? Jeff.
I agree.
Being there, being entirely self-reliant in a place where rescue is unlikely. I have been fortunate enough to travel and still can't imagine a more inhospitable place. Which, when you think about it, says quite a bit about the people who find themselves in the Superstitions.

Remarkable is the word.
jhowlett
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:48 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by jhowlett »

Wayne I was thinking about our team going to the Supers this time and how 2 are US Marshall's and another team member is a capt and heads up a swat team. This made me start thinking about how many people past and present involved in looking for The LDM have been in law enforcement (Sargent Frank), Killer Mountains ect. Wayne has any body ever put a number to approximating the number. The picture posted is our last trip on site with my team on trail leader US Marshall Dave W. Jeff.

next page
jhowlett
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:48 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by jhowlett »

Wayne I was thinking about our team going to the Supers this time and how 2 are US Marshall's and another team member is a capt and heads up a swat team. This made me start thinking about how many people past and present involved in looking for The LDM have been in law enforcement (Sargent Frank), Killer Mountains ect. Wayne has any body ever put a number to approximating the number. The picture posted is our last trip on site with my team on trail leader US Marshall Dave W. Jeff.

next page
jhowlett
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:48 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by jhowlett »

Wayne I was thinking about our team going to the Supers this time and how 2 are US Marshall's and another team member is a capt and heads up a swat team. This made me start thinking about how many people past and present involved in looking for The LDM have been in law enforcement (Sargent Frank), Killer Mountains ect. Wayne has any body ever put a number to approximating the number. The picture posted is our last trip on site with my team on trail leader US Marshall Dave W. Jeff.

next page
somehiker
Posts: 693
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by somehiker »

jhowlett wrote:Wayne I was thinking about our team going to the Supers this time and how 2 are US Marshall's and another team member is a capt and heads up a swat team. This made me start thinking about how many people past and present involved in looking for The LDM have been in law enforcement (Sargent Frank), Killer Mountains ect. Wayne has any body ever put a number to approximating the number. The picture posted is our last trip on site with my team on trail leader US Marshall Dave W. Jeff.

next page
Don't have an answer to that Jeff. A few i suppose, since lawmen make up a percentage of the general population that should be proportional to the number interested in history and legends. And having one in any group of friends involved who might invite other folks he works with along for the ride, wouldn't be unusual.
somehiker
Posts: 693
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by somehiker »

Choto wrote:
Choto wrote:
Choto wrote:
One possible connection would be the Peraltas reopening older mines, perhaps Jesuit mines or mines worked for the SOJ..
I mean...
Realistically, how long would it take for a party of Peralta prospectors to find just one potential site. What about nine or even 18?

Compare this to the SOJ who had time, knowledge, and influence.
The Peraltas and Jesuits probably arrived in in Mexico about the same time....last half of the 1500's.
But the Jesuits were assigned to duties involving missionary work involving conversion of the native populations to Christianity and "civilization". By all accounts and the official records they kept, this was more than enough to keep them busy....and often more than they could handle (especially with a population suffering and declining from European disease,Apache raids etc)....until their expulsion in 1768.
So, while it's possible that the SJ had some degree of involvement in mining wherever they were stationed, as supported by a few historical accounts, the logistics for them to have conducted large scale mining operations with limited resources and manpower, especially in remote areas like the Sups were at the time, would have been virtually impossible IMO.
The Peraltas on the other hand, had no such obligation, and were free to pursue their fortunes as they so desired. As a family it seems they grew in both numbers and influence, with one branch of the family tree becoming central to the legends of gold mines in the Superstitions, including the LDM. Up until 1846, 75 years after the Jesuits were gone, they could also conduct their mining legally and with whatever numbers of workers they could muster. So I'd say the advantages were far greater for the Spanish/Mexican mining families, than they ever were for the Jesuits.
If I find even one gold mine out there though, that I can positively identify as having belonged to either group, I'll be sure to post some photos for y'all. But nine or eighteen ?......that's a lot of holes to have remained hidden for so many years.
jhowlett
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:48 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by jhowlett »

Wayne - Sorry could not get picture loaded will try later. Wayne I agree with the family tree and handing downs knowledge. Also the royal land grant families were so interconnected buy marriage for position and influence. Sometimes I think they first came from West- Virginia by way of Spain Virginia. I always wondered about 18 mines. But then there are a lot of mines out in the Supers. I still say and hopefully will be able to verify before years end that the things on our site, have physical hard core touch with your hands and see that address, what is on the stones, what the Dutchman said and also things that the Peraltas ( especially the daughter) said. I have said since our last trip that I will be very surprised when we get all the way up this time that the things that all Three described ( stones(Jesuit)Mexicans and Waltz) are present. And even if they once were is all the physical proof still there? That's a lot of ifs. Besides the Dj drone and 4 go pros today we just got an Osmo -Plus, should get some great shots, hopefully it's not just of the waitress at Four Peaks. Then again --- Jeff.
somehiker
Posts: 693
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by somehiker »

A better map with which to compare the PF map is this topo......

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/ari ... t-1907.jpg

As you can see, the Salt River makes a much tighter hairpin turn where it exits the canyon at Mormon Flats.
I'm sure that anyone who had spent time, especially engaged in mining activities at that location, could have and would have drawn the bend in the river much as it really was. Having said that though, there were reports of both arrastras just a ways up Tortilla Creek, and placer deposits where Tortilla/ laBarge, and Willow creeks joined the river at Mormon Flats. One of the old pre-reservoir photos shared in an earlier thread also showed a dredge in the bend of the river at that location.
jhowlett
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:48 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Doodles made by Jacob Waltz

Post by jhowlett »

Wayne Great map thanks. Boy Mother Nature was having a PMS attack when she sculpted the Supers. Jeff.
Post Reply