Herman Petrasch

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AshtonPage
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Herman Petrasch

Post by AshtonPage »

I realize this is old news, however it illustrates that ‘closer to the source’ is not necessarily better, more accurate information – but then again, maybe it is and Old Herman is the only one telling the truth. ;)

For the moment, I’m filing this one as “interesting” and debating whether dismissing Herman’s entire account because he has some inaccuracies (to say the least) would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As always, your comments are encouraged.

In Herman’s own words, “You have the facts as they were given to me by my brother - and Reinhardt learned them from Jacob Walzer himself.” Read on…

“Jacob Walzer was a native of Germany,” Herman recalled, “and a sober man of good character, contrary to many legends. Although he did keep wine in his cellar and offered it to friends when they visited him, he refused to drink himself.

“Almost immediately after arriving in the United States, Waltzer had come to Arizona. A business man, he spent his spare time prospecting for gold. He and a friend, Jacob Weiser went on frequent journeys together into the Superstitions. However, no one knew they had found a mine until he told my brother and Mrs. Julia Thomas, Waltzer’s octoroon housekeeper, a short time before his death.

“The mine, which Walzer called the ‘Placer’ was discovered in 1869. On one of their trips, he and Weiser had camped near a good spring not far from the base of what is now called Weaver’s Needle, a sharp isolated peak in this range of mountains. From their camp they could walk to the Placer and to the ‘Quartz’, a second mine about a mile farther.

“The Placer was discovered as they walked through the canyon along the bed of a creek where soil erosion had exposed a ledge of almost pure gold about 20 inches wide.

“This rare and spectacular find they mined by making an excavation on a gradual incline, four inches wider on each side than the deposit of ore. It was just wide enough to work in and not too hard to conceal when they made a trip into Phoenix, Florence or Globe to dispose of a small amount of ore. Walzer was afraid to carry too much gold on anyone trip, and, as he never craved wealth, his wants were simple and easily satisfied.

“The Quartz was discovered later. While working on the Placer one day, the two men heard sounds of rocks being broken. They investigated and found two Spaniards working an old mine which prove equal in richness to the Placer. From that Spaniards they learned that there were eight Spanish mines in the near vicinity. Later the Spaniards were found slain and Weiser and Walzer buried them at the murder site.

"This occurred in 1882. Walzer and his partner did not work the Quartz, as its hidden entrance afforded no look-out opportunity and was therefore dangerously vulnerable to surprise attack. They carefully concealed its location and returned to work the Placer.

“Sometime during their many trips into the mountains, the partners built a native wood and adobe hut near the spring. It undoubtedly fell into ruin long ago, but its pile of rubble probably provides a good landmark to the lost mine area.”

Source:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2403647/19540 ... 54-January
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roc2rol
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Re: Herman Petrasch

Post by roc2rol »

Hi Ashton !

Unfortunately my slow internet connection
is preventing me from pulling up the Desert Magazine article.

Did Herman write the article?
Or was it an interview?

Thanks
roc
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Re: Herman Petrasch

Post by AshtonPage »

Hi Roc,

This was an interview.

I had trouble seeing all of it myself so I recommend:
Starting on page 18
Right Click
Save As
Repeat for page 19

You should be able to see all the print in your saved files.

Considering the article would have been printed while Herman was still alive, I think that would indicate accurate reporting of what Herman said.

IF anything that Herman said was true, it puts a whole new angle on the LDM.

Best,
Ashton
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Re: Herman Petrasch

Post by roc2rol »

I’ll try that Ashton

The first thing I found curious
(obviously the whole thing is curious)
is the immediate comments to make Waltz a teetotaler.
The biographical issue at that that time must have been
between Waltz portrayal as a brawler versus his meek disposition ?

I have read accounts of the early settlers of Phoenix growing grapes
with varying amounts of success. I imagine fermenting those grapes
would have been a motivating reason.

Its an interesting question whether Waltz’s humble adobe had a wine cellar?
He was known to be quite a digger! So I suppose it possible…

roc
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Re: Herman Petrasch

Post by babymick1 »

WOW:

Seperating the books of folklore, from the real man paint's a different picture by far. A nondrinking good man who owned a bakery making a good income, with a store of gold somewhere worth 30,000 and 5,000 left at the time of death. Perhapes thats why he did'nt make to many trips back to the mine. Maybe he lived a very good life in he's later years at a time, most would be lucky to make 30.00 a month.

Take Care

Babymick1
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Re: Herman Petrasch

Post by AshtonPage »

Hi Roc,

I’m having trouble with the wine cellar concept. If Herman isn’t off his rocker, then I will make a SWAG and say the ‘wine cellar’ would be more of a ‘root cellar’. That is to say it’s not a basement, but simply a hole in the ground where things are kept cooler than atmospheric temperature.

All,

According to Herman, Waltz referred to his gold mine as “The Placer” – which by definition is river gold or, more accurately gold that has washed down from the lode into a river or a creek. Considering that Waltz was a miner, that kind of identification would be a difficult flub to make.

Read carefully:
“The Placer was discovered as they walked through the canyon along the bed of a creek where soil erosion had exposed a ledge of almost pure gold about 20 inches wide.” Herman Petrasch.

Therefore if Herman is correct, the LDM is actually located in a stream or creek - or the sidewall of a stream or creek…… yeah, big curve. And a big plus. If this is accurate, it eliminates 95% (that’s a guess, since I’m educated that makes it an ‘educated guess’ :D ) of the search area right off the bat. If you understand what Herman is saying, it also eliminates 90% of the stream-bed area. If you’re a hot-shot stream shooter, it means the LDM can be tracked using conventional methods. In other words, anyone who’s ever operated a river dredge will know where to search. This is a game changer.

It also means that most of us (me included) have been chasing ‘The Quartz’ mine and if anyone ever locates it - Herman's version means; no ore, from any shaft, on any hillside, is ever going to match Waltz’s ‘Placer’ gold that was found in the candle-box.

More comments please – I believe this is too important to ignore.

Cheers,
Ashton
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Re: Herman Petrasch

Post by roc2rol »

Well that why I was asking if it was a self penned essay or an interview.
As you told me it was an interview
So I ASSUMED he was just pulling the interviewer's leg.
But your spin on things Ashton, open new inquiries.

If the Julia & Co. thought the gold was in a spring
& departed into the Supers in August
maybe they thought it would be cool & refreshing?

roc
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Re: Herman Petrasch

Post by AshtonPage »

Hi Roc,

It could be possible that Herman was pulling her leg. But the thing is - Herman knew his interview would be published and read by hundreds of people (at that time). This means -> if he was lying and the LDM was discovered, then Herman would be exposed as a liar of the worst kind; one who tells lies for their own amusement and gets a chuckle out of honest people wasting their lives and their money chasing lies.

Further, if Herman was lying to the reporter, then his credibility in the DH community (who would know that he was lying) would be essentially shot to smithereens. Sort of like those people who post “I found the LDM on Google Earth. Contact my attorney to give me 10% when you get to it.”---- uhhh, one guy actually is doing that. Let me ask; how’s his credibility in the DH community? Would you even LISTEN to anything he had to say? I wouldn’t even be bothered wasting my time.

Actually, I was anticipating that some of the more knowledgeable and experienced Dutch Hunters would weigh in on this thread and give us their opinion and reasoning as to; either Herman was a notorious liar -=or=- that they had read Herman’s interview and they didn’t know what to make of it -=or=- that the interview with Herman only proves that Reiney was totally lost. So far, no such luck – and that in itself is revealing.

I believe that because of Herman’s candor during the interview, talking about Waltzer having a wine cellar, etc. that Herman is telling what he believes to be the truth. If Herman was deliberately lying about the whole affair then I doubt he would be talking about irrelevant issues that put the believability of his story to the test.

So at the end of the day, like everything else I have heard or read about the LDM, I have to decide “what’s the probability of this being correct - versus (whatever) other possibility exists.”

Best,
Ashton
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Re: Herman Petrasch

Post by cubfan64 »

Ashton, I wouldn't put much stock in the fact that you aren't getting responses from more experienced dutchhunters - there aren't all that many who post here on a regular basis.

There was a very brief discussion about the Desert magazine article on another forum 10 years or so ago. I don't know if you know of Ron Feldman, but he mentioned the article and had this to say about it.
I'm from the Petrasch camp, and like Joe feel what Julia and Rhiney knew was probaly the closest to the truth. However , how does anyone really know what they knew?
Luckily we do have some written interviews and info from Herman Petrasch. As an example, the interview of Mary Bagwell, in Desert Magazine, back in the 50's, with Herman. Read that again , it speaks volumes. This man, to me, was of anyone in so called recent times ,the closest link we had to the mine
I stated that for those that have not , to read the interview of Herman in Desert Magazine. I can give you dates if need be. It speaks reems of information, but much more it is the information I gleaned through Ted Cox, and what he said about knowing Herman and his brother. I have researched much on that information , to find that it was correct. Most of what I wrote on the Petraschs in " Crooked Mountain" was not made up , even though in some places I may, as someone noted , thrown a wide loop. I absolutely believe that Herman Petrasch knew where the mine was. Why that information didn't precipitate down to the general knowledge , I will let you deliberate on.
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Re: Herman Petrasch

Post by babymick1 »

Cubfan:

Its not that this forum lacks experienced dutch hunters , The new wave dutch hunters don't like to read all those books to cloud thier {mines,} so most just won't post, because they lack that information.{ including me } Ron and Team Heat spent alot of time and money on nothing, Far as I know. But the information he recieved is what sent Team Heat to that location they dug up. He most likely don't believe that qoute is true now. Don't get me wrong, I met him, shook his hand, talked for a while, and he a likeable fella.

If Herman new the location of the mine, did herman pass a rich man, it seems he lived a meager life of odd jobs and Lived in a makshift shack.

And there are some well read people like Joe' Mike, Desertgold and a few others.

Take Care
Babymick1
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