Damage to Clues or Markers

Moderator: Jim_b

somehiker
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by somehiker » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:27 pm

Rex Western wrote:It is possible that there is a Native American burial ground near by. It is still to this day customary for ancestors to leave food and water for the spirts that are believed to stand guard. I would personally tread lightly.
Yes Rex, I have been told there is.
And I always do if I think there may be reason to do so.
But I'm not so sure that food sealed within such containers, especially in plastic bags would fit the bill. And cached as well.
Spirit might be willing to pitch in here ??

Regards:Somehiker

Rex Western
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:33 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Rex Western » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:54 pm

I fell out of the loop for a little while. Jim was someone very special to me. I lost two hunting partners in two years. Moved out here to get back in the saddle.

User avatar
spirit
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:50 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: Natanes mountains

Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by spirit » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:34 pm

Rex Western and somehiker,

ya-a-teh shils aash,

The Apache before christianity did not have burial grounds such as is thought of as a cemetery. Women and men of clans were buried without any distinction, as quickly as possible and with as little effort as was needed. All Apache abhored cremation. Burial would sometimes be simply finding a nearby crevice or removing some rock just large enough to fit the dead person and covering the body over with rocks so the wolves and scavengers could not get to the remains.

The men of a band or clan were not all what was once called warriors. Some men achieved warrior status but not all men of a clan were trained or fought as warriors and raiders. There was a distinct difference in how a woman or a non warrior was buried as compared to a man with warrior status.

Warriors were more thoughtfully and carefully buried with some degree of ceremony. Sometimes the warriors body would be taken to a prearranged place, usually a place associated with power or spirit power to be buried. There they would be laid within a hidden crevice and personal items would be placed with them and the grave covered over with rock. A specific traditional ceremony would accompany the burial.

Once buried the name of the dead would never be spoken again. The name of the dead would be changed so when he was spoken of in the future he would not be called as he was when alive. This custom is still practiced today by many Apache.

The reason for this is when an Apache dies it is believed they go to the life after and live there with Yolkai Nalin, the goddess of death and birth. They are said to now belong to Yolkai Nalin. She alone controls all souls who pass away and they become her people. If the deads name is spoken by the living it is believed it might anger Yolkai Nalin, and when the person who called that name dies, she might refuse them admittance to the eternal paradise.

At times a relative or someone with spirit power would travel many miles to the resting place of the deceased relative or warrior. There is believed to be much chidin biyi at the grave of a brave warrior, especially one who died defending his clan. A ceremony and offering would be made for the deceased spirit. The visiting person would be careful to stay a considerable distance back from the actual grave as going up to the very place was considered a desecration.

An offering of food, usually parched corn, dried meat, pinion nuts or something similar would be placed on a rock and covered over with wood or bark. Prayers would be said to Yolkai Nalin as the offering is for her, not the deceased. Sacred pollen, hadintin, would be scatted over the offering and to the four cardinal directions. Sometimes Yolkai Nalin would be called upon to withold or put off a death for it is believed she can cause death. Small white beads , small white stones or white shells were usually left nearby, sometimes small blue stones would accompany the others, these would be hung in a tree or on a bush , or left nearby on a rock.

There are few traditionals left among the Apache, but a few who do remain, adhere to and honor these old customs, beliefs and ceremonies.

ka dish day

spirit
Last edited by spirit on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rex Western
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:33 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Rex Western » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:02 pm

Spirit,
I know of places in the Superstitions where the dead have been buried. Most of them cremated. To this day honored elders being placed there. Close by piles of rock with food and water. Are they following Christian ways or intermingling the two beliefs. This is an area hard to find information on. I personally am not even confortable discussing it in open forum. I spend a lot of time in the mountains and do not want to break sacred tradition of the ancient Sonoran people by speaking on subjects I know little about.

Rex

User avatar
spirit
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:50 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: Natanes mountains

Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by spirit » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:56 am

Rex Western,

ya-a-teh shi-ti-ki,

You ask a good question and I can see by the way you ask it you feel a reverence and respect for the places you have come to know.

I cannot speak for the places I do not know, but can say this. Prior to the reservations and the introduction of religion among the Apache, cremation was abhored by all Apache. Those beliefs changed with those who converted to the Christian faith. Cremation and being buried in a box became acceptable to many in acordance with their new beliefs. Some Apache accepted christianity but still held traditional beliefs about death and burial. So you don't have one answer today, you have a large portion of the Apache who have accepted the christian way and a much smaller portion who hold on to the old traditions and ceremony.

I do not know of the places you know of, so cannot speak for them, but I can say, if the remains have been cremated they are either of an older civilization or are Apache who have accepted the christian faith and were cremated and wished not to be buried in a cemetery. The presence of water and food nearby could very well signify a blending of the two traditions as you have stated. In the old days a simple offering laid upon a rock and covered with twigs or bark was observed, but today, any offering in any way is welcomed if it comes from the heart.

These places of burial are sacred. Not to the Apache as a whole, but to those individuals and family who knew the deceased and were involved with their life and death. These burials are an individual matter, not what most believe would be tribal knowledge. If you know of these places it is best to treat them with respect and reverence which I believe you already do. When I am near these places, I always carry with me a small buckskin pouch of sacred pollen (hadintin) from the tule reed or pinion pollen. A scattering of pollen to the four directions shows respect and insures your prayers and thoughts will be heard. A prayer in your own words to your god is always appropriate. Leaving small white shells or rocks nearby is also appropriate.

ka-dish-day

spirit
Last edited by spirit on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rex Western
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:33 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Rex Western » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:03 pm

One last question. Does a blue feather and white feather together mean anything symbolic to the Apache?

User avatar
spirit
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:50 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: Natanes mountains

Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by spirit » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:40 pm

Rex Western,

Since you do not address me by name I take the liberty you were speaking to me so I will answer and trust I will not speak out of place.

I can only speak for what I know and what is customary to my clan and the things I have been taught. I cannot speak for others, other tribes and their ways. This is what I know. The use of a white and blue feather together by some Apache is significant. The feathers themselves, their specific colors and being together all are significant. More common however, is the use of a blue and white stone but the meaning is the same.

You must first understand some basic Apache beliefs. To the Apache there are four sacred colors, black signifies the East, yellow signifies the West, white the North and blue the South. Also, and of great importance is Yolkai-Nalin, the most esteemed and feared Apache deity. Also know to the Apache as white shell girl, she alone controls birth and death and her power and will is second only to yosen (the Apache God). Yolkai-Nalin is always signified by the color white.

Duklishi-Skhin, born in the blue clouds ia a much revered Apache deity who aided Yosen in the creation of people, animals and plants. He is also known as turquoise boy to the Apache and he is always signified with the color blue.

When an Apache prays to Yolkai-Nalin and Duklishi-Skhin, or observes one of the ceremonies connected with them, a blue and white stone, or feathers, or beads, or shells are used with the ceremony, prayer and offerings. Sacred pollen of the tule or pinion is also always used in these ceremonies and prayers. The feathers, stones, beads or shells of the specific blue and white colors signify respect, reverence, purity of your words and heart and serve as a medium between yourself and the deities.

Using these items, which are considered sacred, prayers are said to the deities, speaking to them and sometimes asking for wisdom and guidance or for goodness and mercy. These ceremonies and prayers are very private matters of individuals or one or two other persons, sometimes they are used in band or clan ceremonies involving mountain spirits (gan). The prayer ceremony can be held at any time and any place but when done at a place of chidin bi-yi (spirit power) the significance is greatly heightened.

With me always I carry sacred pollen and a blue and white stone.

spirit

Rex Western
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:33 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Rex Western » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:02 pm

Spirit,

My apologies, my computer is down, so I have been reduced to typing on my phone. The last post was for you. I was trying to be brief. Thank you for your response. It does help a lot. I had been to a burial sight before, and had seen a blue and white feather attached to a marker and wondered what the significance was.

Rex

thehunter
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:28 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by thehunter » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:43 am

Hello to all of you, I am going to think of different topics and questions. I'm sure many found treasures and secretly walked away.some want to be famous and thats ok.Look at the story of the 82 pounds of gold, first the face was covered and then it wasn't. We all learned something about treasure hunting by them comming forward and showing the markings. So why would anyone say there are no treasures or w else they'll say, ""well thats a million to one and there are no others.
I would forget about trees or cactus.unless your looking for something recent.an oak tree can grow pretty old but how good is someone in telling how old the marking is. Now stone can keep markings for hundreds of years, you can chisel it,shape it to cast shadows are and here is a secret methed that can last hundreds of years, finding a large area of bedrock or caliche that wont wash away. They can put large markings but you have to have a keen eye to spot it.
This is the only way anyone will learn to search.the dutchman may have been trying to tell you what to look for. Somebody can correct me but didn't he say there is a face behind him?this is a beautiful form of markings I forgot to add. I have an area with many faces of stone. That might be a clue that might help.
GOOD LUCK

Rex Western
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:33 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Damage to Clues or Markers

Post by Rex Western » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:16 am

thehunter,

Not real good information to put out there for newbies. The Saguaro Cactus was used extensivly by the Spanish. Knowing how to read them can tell you volumes. Saguaro Cactus is a monolithic Cactus, thus it grows very slowly. They can easily live to be 300 years old. If you top (cut) one it will leave a tell taled sign. They grow at a rate of about 1 foot every 12 years. Many times they were ringed or banded. They are very hearty and stick around for a long time....no pun intended. I have found a few mines I would have missed if if were'nt for a couple topped Saguaro's calling out to scout the area. You might do a little checking up on the well documented practice.

Rex

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests