Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Moderator: Jim_b

PBFred
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:07 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by PBFred » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:34 am

I'm curious as to the connection to the Peralta Stones and the Lost Dutchman's Mine... as it seems that the two are completely interchangeable when researching the stones.

Is there any evidence that Jacob Waltz ever had any association with the stone maps at all?

[FYI, it's been about 7 years since I first was introduced to the Peralta Stones by my dad, and after doing a decent amount of research then, I haven't kept up on it, so I have forgotten a lot. :) ]

One of my questions being, was it standard practice of what is assumed to be the Jesuits (which, as far as I can tell, if you believe the stones to be real, created them) to create coded stone maps to a mine?

To create a coded stone map to a place where gold was stashed, yeah, that makes a lot more sense, but to a mine that still needs to be worked? That just seems off to me... it's not like ya just sneak into a mine and grab a bunch of gold ore overnight and then leave. It takes time to work a mine. And also, from what I can tell, the stones supposedly give an amount of gold that is there. This would mean that it has already been mined and processed, thus more evidence that it isn't gold ore we are talking about, but actual pure gold that has already been smelted. This would mean that it definitely isn't a map to the gold ore that the LDM supposedly held.

Not to mention that the stone maps supposedly list the location of 18 different mines, as interpreted by some. If so, it would seem that whoever created them found every single possible gold mine in the Superstitious Mountains, since no other gold, of significance, has ever been found there.

So I am curious to hear people's connections between the Peralta Stones and the LDM.

FYI, IMO, there is evidence that Jacob Waltz worked at the refinery (or whatever the official name is called) that processed the Vulture Mine gold ore... and that his gold ore greatly resembled Vulture Mine gold ore. The refinery is renown for having a great deal of theft from it. This leads me to believe that Waltz stole a lot of ore from the place and then pretended that he had discovered another gold rich mine in the Superstitious Mountains, which I just believe was a hiding place for his stolen gold ore.

If you look at what gold ore looks like, it is very distinct, and to have many people claim that Waltz's ore looked very similar to what came from the Vulture Mine, that just seems too much of a coincidence to me.

Also, I really like the connection of the Peralta Stones to Ted DeGrazia. I'm not quite so sure how he became such a famous, living, artist at the time. But this seems like something right up his alley. I met him many times as a kid and my parents' have over $40,000 of his work (priced in 1980) in our house. Granted, in the past 20 years, we have tried to sell what we have, lithos, plates, and hand signed copies, with zero luck. So, IMO, my sister and I may run into the same situation that DeGrazia faced, when our parents die... having to pay a huge inheritage tax on art work that, as far as we own, seems to have zero value since no one will buy it. BTW, his painting of the Superstitious Mountains has always been my favorite since I was a little kid (and the plate we had of it just accidently got broken a few months ago :().

Anyways, another one of my points being that DeGrazia seemed to gain more popularity than a normal artist during his time. I need to ask my parents about this to see if there was more to it than just the fact we had relatives living in Tucson that we visited often (us being from SoCal). So, like I said, unless I am missing something, creating the Peralta Stones would have been a great way for DeGrazia to drum up interest into his work.

Obviously, my conclusions are all speculation and I could be completely wrong. But if so, I would like to hear why. In part, I like to debate things, but the other is that when debating things, I am completely open to facts that prove me wrong... thus, I get to learn what I don't know and such... unlike a lot of people that are stuck in their beliefs.

User avatar
coazon de oro
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:12 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by coazon de oro » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:39 pm

Howdy PBfred,

And welcome to DUSA.

The Peralta Stone Maps were buried before Ted Degrazia even started painting. They were uncovered in 1949 with roots in the groves. So he could not have made them to get people interested in his paintings that did not exist yet.

Some claim it could be a map he made to a cache of his paintings that he may have hid in the mountains during his tax protest. However, they came into the public eye in 1964 in Life magazine. So they can't be a map to a possible cache of his paintings since his tax protest was in 1976.

In my opinion, that leaves Ted Degrazia out of the picture.

Homar P. Olivarez

StevenTrost
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 9:17 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by StevenTrost » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:12 pm

Greetings PBFred,

As coazon de oro pointed out, the Stone Maps were discovered in 1949 and Ted DeGrazia didn't begin his battles with the IRS until the 1970's. DeGrazia's Superstition period began sometime around the 1964-1965 time period.

Part of the problem with owning DeGrazia paintings and pottery is over 50,000 other people own them also. He was a very prolific artist in several mediums. Only some of his originals and signed and numbered copies are of any real value to collectors. He simply produced and sold too many pieces of his work driving down the value of any one of them that doesn't have any special signicicance all to itself. He was very successful at producing and selling his art.

DeGrazia became famous beginning with a highly praised endorsement from the world famous artist, Diego Rivera in the 1940's but his fame really began when Alvin Saunders allowed DeGrazia to have a one man show at his art gallery in the Saunders "Scottsdale Trading Post" in 1951. To both Saunders and DeGrazia's surprise, the show was a overwhelming hit and from that day on, DeGrazia couldn't sell enough of his art.

Alvin "Buck" Saunders and DeGrazia formed a partnership in which Saunders became DeGrazia's manager and exclusive agent. This partnership and business relationship lasted for the rest of their lives.

You probably heard the idea DeGrazia made the stone maps on one of these lost dutchman websites. The ridiculous statement Ted DeGrazia created the stone maps and that Chuck Aylor was his model for the "priest" stone has been spread for years by a well known person for concocting and generating all kinds of these stories on Dutchman and Stone Map websites for years, getting gullible people to fall for them and believe the fantasies. I understand he was
banned at least twice from websites for spreading similar stories, rumors, falsehoods and anti-social behavior. You can take anything this person says with a grain of salt. You can rest assured,Ted DeGrazia definately did not create the Stone Maps.

I don't know if Jacob Waltz ever knew of the stone maps or not, if he did it would seem he was the one to bury them where they were found. As for the Vulture mine being the mine Waltz got his gold from, that theory has been floating around for many years. A well known author did an ore comparison some years ago including Vulture ore but I have heard there are problems with that comparison and the results so the jury is still out on that issue.

StevenTrost

PBFred
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:07 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by PBFred » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:10 pm

Thanks for the info guys.

Yes, the timeline of DeGrazia and the Stones doesn't match up very well... pretty much ruling him out. And obviously the IRS debacle couldn't be related to the Stones because of the timing. But I still have a gut feeling that he may have made them as some sort of PR stunt to promote his budding career or even as a joke... or as even a copy of a real map to get others to go hunt down something he didn't feel like doing himself. Like I said, it's just a gut feeling and I haven't stopped pursuing other avenues of the Stones being real.

I'm still interested in why the Stones almost always are associated with the LDM? Is there some connection I am missing? Or is it just the simple fact that the two appear so close to each other, especially in an area that isn't known for having gold.

User avatar
coazon de oro
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:12 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by coazon de oro » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:45 am

PBFred,

Many believe the PSM's are fake, and about just as many believe they are real. From those who believe they are real, some believe they lead to Jesuit treasure, and others believe they lead to the LDM.

And what makes some believe they lead to the LDM? Simply a gut feeling just as yours. What sparks this gut feeling? Maybe the fact that they were found where a very rich gold mine was covered.

Some of the richest gold mines in the world are found in old calderas, and this area where the LDM is covered has three old calderas that overlap each other. Some of the highest readings were found in this area by our government after doing a mercury vapor test.

A lot of treasure hunters have found things in the mountains which they believe are clues in the stones, whether they believe them to lead to Jesuit treasure, or to the LDM. Everyone has a different idea, or theory.

Homar

somehiker
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by somehiker » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:26 pm

PBFred:

This page has some of the answers you seek........http://superstitionmountainmuseum.org/e ... n-exhibit/

Although the article states that the first Stone Map, the H/P Stone, was found by T. Tumlinson in 1954, there is now enough evidence available to put the actual discovery within the 1948-49 time frame.

As to whether or not the Stones are real, my own opinion is that they are, and that they all (including the Latin Heart,Stone Crosses and "Perficio" Map) correspond to a specific area within the range.
I do not at this time believe that any are maps to the Lost Dutchman, or that that any, save the Stone Crosses possibly, were ever in the hands of the Peraltas.
Any evidence for their being fashioned by the Jesuits is circumstantial, but having said so, I will go on record in stating that the word "Xavier" does exist at an appropriate location in the field.
Although the word does not appear anywhere on the Stones, it matches the style and form of the word "Peligroza" upon the Priest Stone, where the "X", like the "P", is larger than the other letters.

Regards:Somehiker

PBFred
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:07 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by PBFred » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:56 am

Again, thanks for the info guys.

Homar, I'm no geologist, but I totally agree that any volcanic created area can contain large quantities of any element found on Earth. So I don't doubt there is a good chance that a lot of rich gold ore exists in the Superstitious Mountains... but it does seem weird that if there was, people from 100-300 years ago found ever spot that was close to the surface. But, like I said, I don't doubt that there is some serious amounts of gold there... just that you are probably better off spending your money mining gold in known spots.

Somehiker, thanks for that link. I have checked out that site in the past, but that contained a lot a new info that wasn't there before. Do you, or any else for that matter, know if all the "factual" info about Waltz has been confirmed, basically, his name showing up on all the records the site lists? It seems to be the most concise and informative thing I've ever read about Waltz. It would be nice to know if the non-speculative things were true, i.e., his name showing up on mining claims and such.

Again, thanks guys. You pretty much covered my main question about why the PSMs are almost always connected to the LDM. Which makes me feel better knowing that I wasn't missing some major piece of info that everyone else seemed to know except me. :)

Hooch
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:02 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by Hooch » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:43 am

The Peralta Stones have about as much in common with the stolen gold of the Dutchman as the white dog poop that I forgot to pick up last weekend in my backyard.

StevenTrost
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 9:17 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by StevenTrost » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:33 pm

PBFred, coazon de oro and somehiker,

A curious and mysterious article appeared in the Phoenix Gazette newspaper in 1880-1881. It was a short article telling about a well known local Phoenix man, Ramon Grijalva, who had recently returned to Phoenix from a trip to his native hometown of Altar, Mexico with some curious stone tablets with cryptic etchings on them assumed to be some sort of map or directions. I saw this particular news article from the collection of Mr. Greg Davis of Tempe.

It was always believed by Phoenix residents the stone tablets Grijalva brought to Phoenix with him were somehow connected to the Peralta's. Why this is I can't explain, possibly because of the Reavis land fraud involving the Peralta's of that same time period, or possibly because of something Ramon Grijalva may have said concerning the tablets.

A second article appeared in the 1930's in which another Grijalva, Garcia Higenio Grijalva, also attributed the stone tablets to the Peralta's. This Grijalva was approximately 75 years old when this article appeared making him about the same age as the Ramon Grijalva of the previous article and also a native of Mexico. This Grijalva would have been approximately 20-25 years old when Ramon Grijalva returned to Phoenix from Altar with the stone tablets so he would have had first hand knowledge of them and what the explanation of the time would have been.

It is either an eerie coincidence, or a common occurance that the stone maps of Ramon Grijalva and the later stone maps found by Travis Tumlinson both are attributed to the same family Peralta, and are both considered maps to specific location(s).

I have always wondered, with nothing to prove the theory, were the stone tablets Travis Tumlinson found the same stone tablets Ramon Grijalva brought from altar, Mexico and were somehow or for some reason buried where Tumlinson found them in 1949 ?

To make the mystery even more eerie and intriguing, Ramon Grijalva, the man who brought the tablets to Phoenix, was the next door neighbor of Jacob Waltz, actually living on the south half of Waltz's property at one time according to Maricopa County and Phoenix town tax records.

I do not know the exact year Garcia Grajalva passed away but recall reading somewhere it was the same time or just prior to when Travis Tumlinson found the stone Maps near Queen Creek.

There are so many similarities and coincidences concerning these two stone map stories, that it is almost impossible to connect the dots if in fact they could be connected. I have just been left shaking my head and wondering if there was ever a connection or just a wild set of coincidences.

Steven Trost

PBFred
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:07 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Peralta Stones connection with the LDM?

Post by PBFred » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:52 am

Steven, if what you say is true, that does shed a whole new light on the PSM's. Waltz's neighbor easily could have shown them to him and Waltz was able to decipher them. It does leave the lingering question as to why the PSM's ended up where they did and not with Waltz or a Grijalva family member.

Do you have any links to where these stories about what you posted exist?

In the overall scheme of things, it really doesn't matter if the PSM's and the LDM are connected, with the exception that it could validate the PSM's as authentic (well, at least one set of them, as supposedly multiple sets exists). Like I said earlier, I was wondering why the stones are always linked to the LDM, and from what you have to say, this would pretty much say it is one hell of a coincidence if they aren't.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests