Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

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oroblanco
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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by oroblanco »

Hola amigo Ozarker and everyone,
<heh heh> thanks for the chuckle, and I decided to just put Mr Roberts on ignore, rather than continue to take his bait. Sometimes people with guilty conscious problems see conspiracies all around them, engaging them in their beliefs only reinforces them. Much of this post is not aimed directly at you amigo, but for our readers, the folks whom do not actively post, as you already know much of what I am about to say.

As you pointed out Ozarker, very true,it is always a good practice to check the sources for any book being used as a source. After all, all authors are only as good as their sources.

I read Mr Roberts post about his communications with Harper Collins, and stand by my earlier post, that the book we have today, is not the same manuscript that Sims Ely submitted to the editors . While his comments on editing are in general correct, it is also quite misleading to think that by such editing, nothing of material is changed in the text.

The old example is the best - simply removing or adding a single word from a sentence, changes it entirely. As in - "I did not kill the bishop" to remove just one word, "I did kill the bishop". Even adding a comma or a period, or removing the same, makes a huge difference. Example, "I cooked my family a big dinner" - "I cooked my family, a big dinner!" <Yikes! heh heh>

Also <IMHO> it is not too important to get caught up in the way books are classified; western folklore is the legalistic way a book on the LDM gets classed, and rightfully so, which does not mean it is the same field as "John Carter on Mars" or even the Louis L'amour classics. The world is not quite so black and white. And in defense of Ely, for all the errors in his version, at least we do not find such glaring things as a statement about the reason for why Waltz did not file a claim on his mine being that he was not a citizen. Also, as for the classification system - there are some books in the non-fiction class that rightfully belong in the fiction class for many areas of history.

Side thing but in an unrelated bit of research I found that some authors are unscrupulous enough to apparently invent sources; referring here to a reference I ran across in a book about the Little Bighorn battle, to a particular scout with Custer, in which this scout was supposedly "debriefed" by a newspaper reporter, and made several important statements. On checking this, as I have the very newspaper article referred to, I found that this particular scout was not even mentioned in the interview. In fact the scout being questioned could not have been the one named as he did not leave the battle until a day after the named one. If this erroneous citation were only in one book on the battle I could have written it off as a mistake but now have found the same false citation in several books. Oh and those important statements, are not quite what is in that interview either - and this is in one of the most respected and lauded books currently on the market about the Little Bighorn!

Please do continue amigo, no worries about the accusations etc; your research is excellent and I hope you will share more. As this thread belongs to Mr Roberts, I won't post in it again.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Matthew Roberts »

Matthew Roberts wrote:At the 2012 Dutch Hunters Rendezvous, Thomas E. Glover was the Saturday night featured speaker. Mr. Glover spoke about Sims Ely’s book, The Lost Dutchman Mine. During the speech Mr. Glover told the crowd Sims Ely did not write the book, a writer at Morrow and Co. Press, the books publisher, supposedly wrote the book from a submitted manuscript. At the end of the talk I was even more confused about the book than in the beginning. I chalked that up to Mr. Glover building interest for his new, soon to be printed books which will cover the Ely subject.

Unable to get answers to my many questions I attempted to contact the William Morrow and Company Press in November 2012. I learned Morrow and Co. no longer exists as Morrow and Co., but through sales, mergers and acquisitions today is a part of News Corp. (NC) the largest publisher of books and magazines in the world. Harper-Collins (HC), a subsidiary of News Corp, is today the parent company of the former Wm. Morrow and Company. News Corp. Harper-Collins (NCHC) retains all the imprint records of books acquired through a series of mergers and acquisitions, including the records of Morrow and Company. HC still retains certain printing rights to the book. News Corp. Harper-Collins is located on 10 E. 53rd Street in New York City, they have an office here in Los Angeles.

It took me four months and persistence to contact someone at HC who was able and willing to help me find the answers I was looking for. It took another 5 months to finally get those answers.

When the book was being prepared for publication, Morrow and Co. assigned just two employees to guide the book through to it’s 1st printing. Irwin Schope was assigned art and layout duties, and John Willey was assigned editing duties. Schope did the cover art and maps that appear as well as the general format and layout of the text and chapters. Willey edited the chapters and arranged them in the order we see them today. No one at Morrow and Co. either wrote or rewrote the book, this according to the records retained by Harper-Collins.

Harper-Collins explained, editing a book and writing a book are entirely different endeavors. Neither Willey nor Schope were on the Morrow staff as writers. In fact, Willey was not even an editor, he was the treasurer of Morrow and Company. Morrow and Company employed writers who did rewrites and screen plays from scripts as they did a lot of work with Broadway plays and radio and television. There is a distinct difference in publishing between editors and writers. The Morrow and Company records from 1953 shows none of Morrow's writers were involved with the books writing.

In the Morrow records is a page, written by Sims Ely, entitled Authors Note, in which Sims Ely implies he is the books author and signs the document as the Author of the book. The page is signed by Sims Ely. Also in the record is the documentation Sims Ely retained the copyright for the book with all rights reserved. As Harper-Collins explained, had Morrow and Co. written, or rewritten the book they (Morrow) would have the copyrights. H-C explained this was an important and critical point. No publisher would write a book without retaining the copyright and a book is considered written or rewritten if 41% of the work is penned by the publisher.

Editing a book is not writing or rewriting, it is correcting grammar and punctuation, arranging the sentences, paragraphs and chapters into readable sequence and deleting parts that are redundant or boring to the reader. Adjectives and adverbs are added in editing but not subjects, people , places or events. Editors do not write or rewrite books, they aid in the grammatical, sequential and interesting flow of the book.

Another extremely interesting point came to light concerning Ely’s book. When the book was printed it was assigned the Library of Congress Code Number 53-10167. It was also assigned the Library of Congress Classification Number 1.7G subclass GR Western Folklore, fiction.

Harper Collins explained this is the proper classification for not only Ely’s book, but for all Lost Dutchman Mine books. The Lost Dutchman Mine is a Western Folklore Legend, not a historical Non-Fiction as current Dutchman books masquerade themselves. At best it is historical Fiction, a loose combination of folklore and incidental facts.

Why is this classification important ? As HC explains, over the years, small, local publishers and fly by night printers have corrupted the LDM book classification to become a "979.175 type Non-Fiction book". As if it were a True, Non-Fiction Historical Documentary. The current LDM books do this to garner a wider audience and increase the price of the book.

But this is deceptive advertising, bait and switch. There is a large market that deals only in True, Historical Non-Fiction books and documentary accounts, this market is deceived by the false classification and buys the books with the understanding they are Non-Fiction documentary and finding out later they bought a combination of loosely woven historical fiction.

One of the reason recent Lost Dutchman books sell so poorly is because large lot buyers have been burned by the false classifications and have been stuck with hundreds of books they must unload onto the Fiction market at great loss. They are understandably shy about purchasing large lots of these type books and now buy small quantities as they sell them, if they sell at all.

If News Corp. Harper Collins were to ever publish a Lost Dutchman Mine book today it would receive the same type of classification given the Sims Ely book in 1953 1.7G GR Western Folklore . Wm. Morrow and Company of New York was one of the leading and most reputable publishers of their day. News Corp. Harper Collins is today the leading and most respected publisher in the world. Publishing has fallen considerably with the influx of the small local printing houses. An interesting and eye opening look into today’s publishing world from the largest and most respected publisher of books in the world.

Now, if Sims Ely didn’t write The Lost Dutchman Mine, and it wasn’t Wm. Morrow and Company, who did ? (The above is my personal opinion based on my conversations and correspondence with News Corp, Harper-Collins.)

Sims Ely had the peculiar habit of writing a detailed statement in one chapter of his book, and later, in a following chapter, would slip in the source of that statement, so subtly you almost wouldn't make the connection unless you read the book several times over.

In chapter 7, Ely details Waltz's arrival in America and states he arrived with his father, Karl, and mother, Judith. Further he state the name of Waltz's brother, and that the Waltz's were accompanied by the Weiser family.

Later, in chapter 9, Ely casually reveals the source of his detailed statements about Waltz and his family. Ely begins by talking about one of Waltz's neighbors, A.L. Henshaw and Henshaw's son Fred. Ely writes : .... "Waltz even volunteered to him (A.L. Henshaw) information about his boyhood in Germany and the circumstances of his coming to the United States."

This is interesting because Henshaw's son Fred, was the source for many authors who wrote about Waltz's life, as was another man, Frank K. Alkire.

Frederick Higham, Barney Barnard, John Mitchell, Barry Storm, R. Joseph Allen, Sims Ely and R. Blair are among the many who used these men as sources for Waltz and his life.

Matthew

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker »

All:

I'll be posting scans of some of the news articles, announcements and ads described in my previous posts.

I'm a little rusty at posting images in threads, so there may be some fits and starts here at the beginning.

This one is an ad for Julia's first store, which Julia started shortly after she and Emil arrived in Phoenix:


Image


(Arizona Gazette, 25 April 1885, page 2 column 3)
(Arizona Gazette, 13 June 1885, page 3 column 4)

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker »

Announcement of the Thomas-Steinegger partnership, which would be located in Steinegger's building in Block 20:


Image


(Arizona Daily Gazette, 5 August 1885, page 3 column 3)

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker »

One of Thomas and Steinegger's ads for their joint venture, called the Vienna Bakery:

Image

(Arizona Daily Gazette, 25 August 1885, page 3 column 3)

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker »

Two (of several) announcements concerning the auction of Thomas and Steinegger's stock, shortly before they dissolved their Vienna Bakery partnership:

Image

(Arizona Daily Gazette, 13 February 1887, page 3 column 1)
(Arizona Daily Gazette, 19 February 1887, page 3 column 1)

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker »

Official announcement of Dissolution of Partnership (Thomas & Steinegger):

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(Arizona Daily Gazette, 1 March 1887, page 4 column 6)

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker »

Two articles concerning Emil Thomas opening a new confectionery and ice cream parlor of his own, shortly after leaving the partnership with Steinegger:

Image

(Phoenix Daily Herald, 8 April 1887, page 3 column 2)
(Arizona Daily Gazette, 27 April 1887, page 3 column 1)

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker »

Part of Thomas and Steinegger's competition included placing competing ads. In this case, the Thomas ad appeared directly above Steinegger's (this is but one of numerous examples):

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(Phoenix Daily Herald, 22 April 1887, page 3 column 3)

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Re: Emil and Julia Thomas Bakery

Post by Ozarker »

Another of Steinegger's ads, showing him as the sole proprietor:

Image

(Arizona Daily Gazette, 4 June 1887, page 3 column 2)

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