Tumlinson Saga

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RMG1976
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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:16 pm

cubfan64 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:23 pm
Ryan - thanks for continuing your story. I swore I wasn't going to interrupt until the end but I just want a quick clarification of where we are right now based on your previous posts. Please take a look at my takeaway and let me know if I'm on the same page as you or not...

1. The stone maps that we know from the Life Magazine as well as museum were created completely from beginning to end by Travis using the "Ground" and "Barn" maps as some sort of guides - not reproductions of those maps per se. but with some basis.

2. The small grey stone (key stone) fits inside another set of stones that have nothing to do with nor do they resemble at all the stone maps Travis carved.

3. You believe the grey stone set of maps was the set of stones mentioned in the newspaper account of Grijalva

4. You believe the grey stone set of maps is the set of maps purchased from Charlie Miller by Travis for ~$8000 - or at least those are the stones Travis wanted to purchase

5. I'm not sure about this part, so correct me if I'm wrong... You believe based on Travis' manuscript that Charlie Miller and someone else discovered those grey stone maps in Roy Bradford's old camp shortly before he died and that the grey stone maps were in the possession of Adolph Ruth at some point.

Let me know if I interpreted things correctly so far...

Hello Paul,

Thank you for your intelligent and respectful questions. I always look forward to intelligent dialogue - as it is absolutely the best way to communicate and get to the bottom of things.

1. I have not found any reason to believe the stone maps in LIFE Magazine, nor the museum, ever touched the hands of Travis Tumlinson. The textual based carvings, as well as the remainder of all the other carvings, do not represent the artistic ability nor style of Travis Tumlinson. Key reference here is "The Lobo Stone". That is the last known carving of Travis Tumlinson on July 7, 1960. I believe the stones in LIFE to be reproductions made by Clarence Mitchell as the most likely source. Whether Mr. Mitchell commissioned those stones to be made, or did them himself, I do not know. I feel the same about the the stones in the museum. In one of the videos I made, years ago, after being given access to the stones with the case removed ( Thank you George! R.I.P ) I would compare the stones in the museum to the stones in LIFE Magazine and was able to present striking differences. Further - D.A. investigated the museum stones throughly and I agree with their professional opinion that they were modern day creations.

2. Yes, that is correct. And further expanded, the key stone has nothing to do with the stones in the museum nor LIFE Magazine.

3. According to the article published by the Phoenix Daily Herald on Oct 4, 1887 - Rafael Grijalva is noted to have only 1 stone, not a set as you mention in your question. The description is that it is a smooth, square stone bearing letters and figures. One could possibly argue the point that Mr. Grijalva came into Phoenix with more than one, and only chose to talk about one - but that is conjecture.

4. When I described Charlie Miller and the great odds of Travis purchasing a collection of stone maps from him, this is what I wrote as part of this thread.

"After years of research – contemplation – talks with the family and Lynda – all signs point to Charlie Miller being the originator of the Stone Maps, or recovered them from the tunnel that Travis mentioned. It is my belief that these are the small grey stones that I have frequently mentioned..."

I have a collection of photographs of a series of stone maps, that are grey, and those are the stones that I believe were the result of the $8,000+ transaction. I will also offer to the community that stone maps were popping up everywhere. Whether it be the Latin Heart, Bilbrey Crosses, etc. Is it possible Travis got scammed? Perhaps, but unlikely.

5. According to the writings of Travis in CFSG, Travis worked with Charlie Miller very early on, by recommendation of Rhodes Wilson, a childhood friend of Robert Tumlinson. Due to greed of Robert Tumlinson, he suggested that Charlie Miller be fired as a way to have one less person involved in their financial split of possible treasure recovery. This also aligns with the telegram that was sent, among many other things in which I will touch on in a later post, including another telegram in which I hope to be able to post here on DUSA. Further, it was Charlie Miller and Rhodes Wilson that went into a the tunnel, after being given the "go-ahead" from Mr. Bradford. The ultimate answer to your question is yes.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:21 pm

Expanding on question 5.

Once Robert Tumlinson was out of the picture - Charlie Miller and Rhodes Wilson would reconnect with Travis about 15-16 years later, in 1958. Travis speaks of his great respect for Mr. Miller and admires his abilities and craftsmanship. They would travel together, in Mr. Miller's truck as far as they could make it, to eventually end up near Peter's Mesa and Peter's Canyon in search of more treasure.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:29 pm

Edit again! Im apparently on a roll here, but want to ensure that all posts are left unedited.

Ive just read a post by Frank on Tnet. While I do not agree with him on much, he brings an interesting point in regard to the two different maps. Frank has seen both in person - and I feel the scenario he rises could be possible. Its can be daunting, at times, to make any statement to the veracity of many things. You notice that I use the words " I believe " quite often. I am also very firm when I know something as fact.

Thank you for your comments, Frank.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:35 pm

Last comment of the day, as I am heading out.

It sure would be nice if we could continue constructive, mature and respectful discourse as has recently been presented by a few forum members. There is no reason for demeaning or defensive questions, or demands for information. You have my word, I am posting as much as I can.

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cubfan64
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Re: Here is what happened

Post by cubfan64 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:17 pm

RMG1976 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:16 pm
cubfan64 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:23 pm
Ryan - thanks for continuing your story. I swore I wasn't going to interrupt until the end but I just want a quick clarification of where we are right now based on your previous posts. Please take a look at my takeaway and let me know if I'm on the same page as you or not...

1. The stone maps that we know from the Life Magazine as well as museum were created completely from beginning to end by Travis using the "Ground" and "Barn" maps as some sort of guides - not reproductions of those maps per se. but with some basis.

2. The small grey stone (key stone) fits inside another set of stones that have nothing to do with nor do they resemble at all the stone maps Travis carved.

3. You believe the grey stone set of maps was the set of stones mentioned in the newspaper account of Grijalva

4. You believe the grey stone set of maps is the set of maps purchased from Charlie Miller by Travis for ~$8000 - or at least those are the stones Travis wanted to purchase

5. I'm not sure about this part, so correct me if I'm wrong... You believe based on Travis' manuscript that Charlie Miller and someone else discovered those grey stone maps in Roy Bradford's old camp shortly before he died and that the grey stone maps were in the possession of Adolph Ruth at some point.

Let me know if I interpreted things correctly so far...

Hello Paul,

Thank you for your intelligent and respectful questions. I always look forward to intelligent dialogue - as it is absolutely the best way to communicate and get to the bottom of things.

1. I have not found any reason to believe the stone maps in LIFE Magazine, nor the museum, ever touched the hands of Travis Tumlinson. The textual based carvings, as well as the remainder of all the other carvings, do not represent the artistic ability nor style of Travis Tumlinson. Key reference here is "The Lobo Stone". That is the last known carving of Travis Tumlinson on July 7, 1960. I believe the stones in LIFE to be reproductions made by Clarence Mitchell as the most likely source. Whether Mr. Mitchell commissioned those stones to be made, or did them himself, I do not know. I feel the same about the the stones in the museum. In one of the videos I made, years ago, after being given access to the stones with the case removed ( Thank you George! R.I.P ) I would compare the stones in the museum to the stones in LIFE Magazine and was able to present striking differences. Further - D.A. investigated the museum stones throughly and I agree with their professional opinion that they were modern day creations.

2. Yes, that is correct. And further expanded, the key stone has nothing to do with the stones in the museum nor LIFE Magazine.

3. According to the article published by the Phoenix Daily Herald on Oct 4, 1887 - Rafael Grijalva is noted to have only 1 stone, not a set as you mention in your question. The description is that it is a smooth, square stone bearing letters and figures. One could possibly argue the point that Mr. Grijalva came into Phoenix with more than one, and only chose to talk about one - but that is conjecture.

4. When I described Charlie Miller and the great odds of Travis purchasing a collection of stone maps from him, this is what I wrote as part of this thread.

"After years of research – contemplation – talks with the family and Lynda – all signs point to Charlie Miller being the originator of the Stone Maps, or recovered them from the tunnel that Travis mentioned. It is my belief that these are the small grey stones that I have frequently mentioned..."

I have a collection of photographs of a series of stone maps, that are grey, and those are the stones that I believe were the result of the $8,000+ transaction. I will also offer to the community that stone maps were popping up everywhere. Whether it be the Latin Heart, Bilbrey Crosses, etc. Is it possible Travis got scammed? Perhaps, but unlikely.

5. According to the writings of Travis in CFSG, Travis worked with Charlie Miller very early on, by recommendation of Rhodes Wilson, a childhood friend of Robert Tumlinson. Due to greed of Robert Tumlinson, he suggested that Charlie Miller be fired as a way to have one less person involved in their financial split of possible treasure recovery. This also aligns with the telegram that was sent, among many other things in which I will touch on in a later post, including another telegram in which I hope to be able to post here on DUSA. Further, it was Charlie Miller and Rhodes Wilson that went into a the tunnel, after being given the "go-ahead" from Mr. Bradford. The ultimate answer to your question is yes.
Thanks for the responses... Regarding question #1, I guess I was way off base. I had based my interpretation on this earlier statement by you...
Now being armed with A LOT more information, our quest could really start. Some things came blaring loud and clear.

Blueprints, Travis was the originator of the Stone Maps, from creation to end. They are based on the ground map and barn map, both of which had been heavily discussed and accepted by the SoJ.
I'm not quite clear how that statement and your answer that Travis had no hand in creating the museum or LIFE magazine stones jive - are you perhaps saying that Travis carved multiple copies of stone maps based on the ground and barn map but none of them match the museum or LIFE stones?

As for the Grijalva question, I made a mistake from the newspaper article mentioning only one stone, but I was basing my question on your earlier post...
...Another set that we believe were the stone maps that Rafael Grijalva brought into Phoenix.


so if I'm correctly reading things, you believe Grijalva had more than one stone and somehow those ended up in Bradford's and eventually Miller's possession - or Miller just had them himself.

Thanks again for the recounting of events....

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by somehiker » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:17 pm

It's all a good read Ryan.
A possibility for the "projectile" you listed.
Travis' grandfather had lost his leg, likely due to an infection after he accidentally shot himself.
Could this be the slug that was removed from his leg, saved and passed on to Travis as a reminder "not to get careless" by Pegleg T. ?
A good reason I think, to keep such a memento.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:37 pm

cubfan64 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:17 pm
RMG1976 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:16 pm
cubfan64 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:23 pm
Ryan - thanks for continuing your story. I swore I wasn't going to interrupt until the end but I just want a quick clarification of where we are right now based on your previous posts. Please take a look at my takeaway and let me know if I'm on the same page as you or not...

1. The stone maps that we know from the Life Magazine as well as museum were created completely from beginning to end by Travis using the "Ground" and "Barn" maps as some sort of guides - not reproductions of those maps per se. but with some basis.

2. The small grey stone (key stone) fits inside another set of stones that have nothing to do with nor do they resemble at all the stone maps Travis carved.

3. You believe the grey stone set of maps was the set of stones mentioned in the newspaper account of Grijalva

4. You believe the grey stone set of maps is the set of maps purchased from Charlie Miller by Travis for ~$8000 - or at least those are the stones Travis wanted to purchase

5. I'm not sure about this part, so correct me if I'm wrong... You believe based on Travis' manuscript that Charlie Miller and someone else discovered those grey stone maps in Roy Bradford's old camp shortly before he died and that the grey stone maps were in the possession of Adolph Ruth at some point.

Let me know if I interpreted things correctly so far...

Hello Paul,

Thank you for your intelligent and respectful questions. I always look forward to intelligent dialogue - as it is absolutely the best way to communicate and get to the bottom of things.

1. I have not found any reason to believe the stone maps in LIFE Magazine, nor the museum, ever touched the hands of Travis Tumlinson. The textual based carvings, as well as the remainder of all the other carvings, do not represent the artistic ability nor style of Travis Tumlinson. Key reference here is "The Lobo Stone". That is the last known carving of Travis Tumlinson on July 7, 1960. I believe the stones in LIFE to be reproductions made by Clarence Mitchell as the most likely source. Whether Mr. Mitchell commissioned those stones to be made, or did them himself, I do not know. I feel the same about the the stones in the museum. In one of the videos I made, years ago, after being given access to the stones with the case removed ( Thank you George! R.I.P ) I would compare the stones in the museum to the stones in LIFE Magazine and was able to present striking differences. Further - D.A. investigated the museum stones throughly and I agree with their professional opinion that they were modern day creations.

2. Yes, that is correct. And further expanded, the key stone has nothing to do with the stones in the museum nor LIFE Magazine.

3. According to the article published by the Phoenix Daily Herald on Oct 4, 1887 - Rafael Grijalva is noted to have only 1 stone, not a set as you mention in your question. The description is that it is a smooth, square stone bearing letters and figures. One could possibly argue the point that Mr. Grijalva came into Phoenix with more than one, and only chose to talk about one - but that is conjecture.

4. When I described Charlie Miller and the great odds of Travis purchasing a collection of stone maps from him, this is what I wrote as part of this thread.

"After years of research – contemplation – talks with the family and Lynda – all signs point to Charlie Miller being the originator of the Stone Maps, or recovered them from the tunnel that Travis mentioned. It is my belief that these are the small grey stones that I have frequently mentioned..."

I have a collection of photographs of a series of stone maps, that are grey, and those are the stones that I believe were the result of the $8,000+ transaction. I will also offer to the community that stone maps were popping up everywhere. Whether it be the Latin Heart, Bilbrey Crosses, etc. Is it possible Travis got scammed? Perhaps, but unlikely.

5. According to the writings of Travis in CFSG, Travis worked with Charlie Miller very early on, by recommendation of Rhodes Wilson, a childhood friend of Robert Tumlinson. Due to greed of Robert Tumlinson, he suggested that Charlie Miller be fired as a way to have one less person involved in their financial split of possible treasure recovery. This also aligns with the telegram that was sent, among many other things in which I will touch on in a later post, including another telegram in which I hope to be able to post here on DUSA. Further, it was Charlie Miller and Rhodes Wilson that went into a the tunnel, after being given the "go-ahead" from Mr. Bradford. The ultimate answer to your question is yes.
Thanks for the responses... Regarding question #1, I guess I was way off base. I had based my interpretation on this earlier statement by you...
Now being armed with A LOT more information, our quest could really start. Some things came blaring loud and clear.

Blueprints, Travis was the originator of the Stone Maps, from creation to end. They are based on the ground map and barn map, both of which had been heavily discussed and accepted by the SoJ.
I'm not quite clear how that statement and your answer that Travis had no hand in creating the museum or LIFE magazine stones jive - are you perhaps saying that Travis carved multiple copies of stone maps based on the ground and barn map but none of them match the museum or LIFE stones?

As for the Grijalva question, I made a mistake from the newspaper article mentioning only one stone, but I was basing my question on your earlier post...
...Another set that we believe were the stone maps that Rafael Grijalva brought into Phoenix.


so if I'm correctly reading things, you believe Grijalva had more than one stone and somehow those ended up in Bradford's and eventually Miller's possession - or Miller just had them himself.

Thanks again for the recounting of events....
I could have done a better job clarifying even deeper on your question.

1) In addition to what I have already replied to question 1- Alleen sold Clarence Mitchell (3) stone maps on January 23, 1963 for $1,200. ( I have always found the sale of 3 stones to be odd, as a side note, when there are technically 4 separate pieces, but thats another topic). When I say that Travis had nothing to do with what you see in Life Magazine or the Museum, what I mean is that he wasn't involved in the carving of those particular stones. They look different from what he carved, not only in craftsmanship (Life Magazine and Museum stones look WAY better and much bigger in size) but in technique. I believe that Mr. Mitchell made reproductions from the stones he purchased from Alleen, which WERE one of the various sets Travis carved. When I say reproductions, think of a remastered version of the stones that Travis carved - in 4K UHD - completed or commissioned by Mitchell.

2) This is a miscommunication on my part. I can see that I used the plural version of stoneS in my description. As far as what history tells us, Mr. Grijalva only brought one stone into Phoenix. This is where other folks that write about Superstition History have a great advantage over me. They are taking months, sometimes years to read / re-read / have friends read and perhaps a publisher to make sure simple mistakes like that dont happen. I am literally typing and posting to DUSA in real time. That isnt an excuse for making an error like that, which would lead the reader to believe there were more than 1. I will pay more attention in the future. I am so used to typing stoneS because there are just damn many of them. Regardless, point taken and thanks for bringing it to my attention.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:38 pm

somehiker wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:17 pm
It's all a good read Ryan.
A possibility for the "projectile" you listed.
Travis' grandfather had lost his leg, likely due to an infection after he accidentally shot himself.
Could this be the slug that was removed from his leg, saved and passed on to Travis as a reminder "not to get careless" by Pegleg T. ?
A good reason I think, to keep such a memento.
That very well could be, Wayne. We will never know for certain, like many things with this story, but I would have a tendency to buy into what you are suggesting. The Tumlinson family, especially that generation, was quite sentimental.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:45 pm

I am going to ask Lynda about this - she knows this topic a bit better than I - but if I am not mistaken, I believe she told me there was a split of the original stones ( The set purchased from Alleen) to Mitchell's business partners. Dont take this as fact for this moment until I can get the documentation from her. She pulled it from Garry's information.

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Re: Here is what happened

Post by cubfan64 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:30 pm

Thanks again for the clarification Ryan - I understand now what you meant by the LIFE and museum stones being different from the copies Travis had made. It's sort of weird that Mitchell would have had "professional" copies made and then try to pass them off as "originals," but people have done dumber things.

No sweat about the stone(s) thing - I just wanted to make sure I understood where you were coming from. This would all be so much easier if we were all just sitting around a campfire listening to the recounting and asking questions as it went along to clarify these little things. As long as you don't mind answering some little "nit pick" questions now and then if I see something I don't quite understand, it's all good with me.

I'll leave you alone for a few days now :)

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