Tumlinson Saga

Moderator: Jim_b

RMG1976
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:56 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:36 pm

cubfan64 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:30 pm
Thanks again for the clarification Ryan - I understand now what you meant by the LIFE and museum stones being different from the copies Travis had made. It's sort of weird that Mitchell would have had "professional" copies made and then try to pass them off as "originals," but people have done dumber things.

No sweat about the stone(s) thing - I just wanted to make sure I understood where you were coming from. This would all be so much easier if we were all just sitting around a campfire listening to the recounting and asking questions as it went along to clarify these little things. As long as you don't mind answering some little "nit pick" questions now and then if I see something I don't quite understand, it's all good with me.

I'll leave you alone for a few days now :)
I dont mind at all. Like I said, I appreciate good conversation. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I am just here to tell what Ive learned over the past few years and share documentation as much as possible, like I promised to do a few years ago when I started. I would imagine I still have 2-3 more installments before I am done. Feel free to ask questions, or nit pick, as much as you'd like. If I know the question - I'm happy to answer.



Edit to add: As far as copies being made, the museum has done the same thing - when the "main" museum stones were on loan or being showcased some place else. I remember an episode of America Unearthed with Mr. Feldman where, at least the way the episode was cut, it appeared he did the same thing.

Having duplicates of the stones doesn't surprise me at all anymore.

RMG1976
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:56 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:42 pm

ImageCopies by RYAN GORDON, on Flickr

RMG1976
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:56 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 pm

Paul - if the Flagg Foundation (current owners of the stone maps) would have copies made to be placed in the museum - then why would it be hard to believe that the previous owner of the stones (Mitchell) - wouldn't do the same thing?

Carrol
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:10 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Here is what happened

Post by Carrol » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:27 pm

Ryan, Thanks for the early installment!!
I have a statement /question that's a little off topic as the topic seems to be more about the stone maps.
As a kid my dad & I pictured a lot of the codes/marks that were on saguaros for later reference.
As I look at the pictures now (including you crown mark picture),
I see that the carvings look very old because of the way they aged as time goes by.
Those saguaros are dead & gone now.

Is there a way to determine how old these carvings are? I know none of us are professional saguaro carving daters, but I wonder if it's possible.
My dad located the kings royal 5th by the carvings on the cacti so those carvings had to be the real deal.
But I wonder if maybe somebody like Travis hiking thru the area 80 yrs ago or so carving cacti just for the fun of it? They are the same marks on the stone maps.

If the carvings on the saguaros can be dated back 250 yrs then they would have much more validity than the stone maps, right?

Nobody really mentions the cacti carving much at all, I thought maybe because there not there anymore or maybe because they can't be seen on Google Earth?
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Carrol

RMG1976
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:56 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:14 am

Carrol wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:27 pm
Ryan, Thanks for the early installment!!
I have a statement /question that's a little off topic as the topic seems to be more about the stone maps.
As a kid my dad & I pictured a lot of the codes/marks that were on saguaros for later reference.
As I look at the pictures now (including you crown mark picture),
I see that the carvings look very old because of the way they aged as time goes by.
Those saguaros are dead & gone now.

Is there a way to determine how old these carvings are? I know none of us are professional saguaro carving daters, but I wonder if it's possible.
My dad located the kings royal 5th by the carvings on the cacti so those carvings had to be the real deal.
But I wonder if maybe somebody like Travis hiking thru the area 80 yrs ago or so carving cacti just for the fun of it? They are the same marks on the stone maps.

If the carvings on the saguaros can be dated back 250 yrs then they would have much more validity than the stone maps, right?

Nobody really mentions the cacti carving much at all, I thought maybe because there not there anymore or maybe because they can't be seen on Google Earth?
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Carrol

Morning Carrol,

I'm on that same exact page with you when it comes to the cacti and getting some dates on them. There are so many variables.... Talks of cacti and their age has been something the family, Lynda and I have talked about again and again and again....

There are some things I always refute and some facts I know when it comes to the age of a particular cactus.

1) Saguaro cacti can live hundreds of years. We can all agree on that, yea?
2) I have yet to find any log that dates back to say....the 1800s....and someone said "I planted this cactus seed on January 1, 1800. Here is its exact location. Then have a detailed journal of how quickly in grew during that person's life time. Then have someone else come along and follow up. and yet another person after that to follow up. Ultimately, the age of a natural cactus in the wild cannot be proven with exacting numbers, but typically about a 25-50 year range. A lot can happen in 25-50 years! The records of this state don't go back that far...after all, Arizona has only been a state for 106 years. (yes, territory before that)
3) A cactus is like any other "plant" - it can be hugely successful based upon how close it is to water and the soil conditions. If anyone has ever hiked near black top mesa, you will see a forest of HUGE cacti - very close together. Then you can go a few hundred feet away from that same location and see that the cacti become sparse again.
4) My personal opinion is it will be impossible to date a particular cactus - because there are way too many variables - they dont have rings on them like a redwood tree - then attempting to get a date of when someone carved a "crown" into the cactus, or tattooed some V's into the cactus, will be near impossible.

As part of our series, it was the plan to get the cacti dated. I had a great conversation with Dr. Glover about this exact topic, in person. He thought he knew someone that was pretty good at dating cacti, but it never manifested. Lynda also has someone down in Tucson that she thinks would be a good match.

Jumping forward to today, I have invested past the 6 figure mark into this story. I am not willing to spend any more money, as I'm sure most anyone could understand. If there was enough interest from the community, once I am done writing, and everyone wanted to chip in a few bucks and we collectively hire a 'Cactus expert", then I'd be all for it.


On a different note - the struggle of telling this story is difficult and has taken many years and hundreds of hours of research and phone calls with the best of the best. I know how the story started (Thanks to the SoJ) - and I know how the story ends ( we found a box of metallic objects via GPR at the 1847 site thanks to Tumlinson & Leasman family maps in association with the "Peralta Stone Maps") - filling in the gaps in between is taking WAY too many stone maps and trying to make sense of them - a lot of secret handshakes - aliases - 2 missing storage units of Travis' affairs - Charlie Miller and his maps / stones / tracings - Erwin and Adolph Ruth and the family that sought asylum from Mexico during their "revolution" - also understanding that the death of Mr. Ruth was a manhunt of worthwhile proportion ( has it ever crossed anyone's mind that the maps Mr. Ruth had on his body at the time of death would be the key determining factor of his murderer, should those maps become known in the community? Transferring them to a different medium, and making some "adjustments" would be a wise choice ) - taking into account that Rafael Grijalva's father lived next door to Jacob Waltz(er) - the political and economic climate of our country during the time period - all the owners of the stone maps making multiple copies of them (however, the Flagg Foundation seems to win the award ) and the damn cacti and getting dates on them, which seems near impossible.

It is my hope that once all the evidence and story lines are presented by me - we can all work towards getting the middle portion of the story told with as much information as possible. I have a lot, but I dont have all of it.

I am proud to see the research Paul (CubFan) is doing on Tnet - along with the help of "PotBellyJim" and others. Let's keep it up!

My journey with all of you is to fill in the blanks as much as possible. If I can do that with 60-70% surety - then I believe I have done well.

RMG1976
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:56 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:20 am

I will not be posting another installment today - but will focus on getting more out tomorrow. I will be around and look forward to whatever conversation comes.

RMG1976
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:56 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:25 am

ImageBradford by RYAN GORDON, on Flickr



Here is that as well. If you go back to CFSG, and take into account the stories of Charlie Miller and Rhodes Wilson, we can get a general date of when they went into the tunnel to retrieve the alleged maps of Mr. Ruth as well as other "things".

Charlie Miller and Rhodes Wilson were visiting Mr. Bradford while he was in a rest home - when Mr. Bradford gave them the "go ahead" to retrieve all of his belongings.

Carrol
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:10 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Here is what happened

Post by Carrol » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:24 am

RMG1976 wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:14 am
Carrol wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:27 pm
Ryan, Thanks for the early installment!!
I have a statement /question that's a little off topic as the topic seems to be more about the stone maps.
As a kid my dad & I pictured a lot of the codes/marks that were on saguaros for later reference.
As I look at the pictures now (including you crown mark picture),
I see that the carvings look very old because of the way they aged as time goes by.
Those saguaros are dead & gone now.

Is there a way to determine how old these carvings are? I know none of us are professional saguaro carving daters, but I wonder if it's possible.
My dad located the kings royal 5th by the carvings on the cacti so those carvings had to be the real deal.
But I wonder if maybe somebody like Travis hiking thru the area 80 yrs ago or so carving cacti just for the fun of it? They are the same marks on the stone maps.

If the carvings on the saguaros can be dated back 250 yrs then they would have much more validity than the stone maps, right?

Nobody really mentions the cacti carving much at all, I thought maybe because there not there anymore or maybe because they can't be seen on Google Earth?
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Carrol

Morning Carrol,

I'm on that same exact page with you when it comes to the cacti and getting some dates on them. There are so many variables.... Talks of cacti and their age has been something the family, Lynda and I have talked about again and again and again....

There are some things I always refute and some facts I know when it comes to the age of a particular cactus.

1) Saguaro cacti can live hundreds of years. We can all agree on that, yea?
2) I have yet to find any log that dates back to say....the 1800s....and someone said "I planted this cactus seed on January 1, 1800. Here is its exact location. Then have a detailed journal of how quickly in grew during that person's life time. Then have someone else come along and follow up. and yet another person after that to follow up. Ultimately, the age of a natural cactus in the wild cannot be proven with exacting numbers, but typically about a 25-50 year range. A lot can happen in 25-50 years! The records of this state don't go back that far...after all, Arizona has only been a state for 106 years. (yes, territory before that)
3) A cactus is like any other "plant" - it can be hugely successful based upon how close it is to water and the soil conditions. If anyone has ever hiked near black top mesa, you will see a forest of HUGE cacti - very close together. Then you can go a few hundred feet away from that same location and see that the cacti become sparse again.
4) My personal opinion is it will be impossible to date a particular cactus - because there are way too many variables - they dont have rings on them like a redwood tree - then attempting to get a date of when someone carved a "crown" into the cactus, or tattooed some V's into the cactus, will be near impossible.

As part of our series, it was the plan to get the cacti dated. I had a great conversation with Dr. Glover about this exact topic, in person. He thought he knew someone that was pretty good at dating cacti, but it never manifested. Lynda also has someone down in Tucson that she thinks would be a good match.

Jumping forward to today, I have invested past the 6 figure mark into this story. I am not willing to spend any more money, as I'm sure most anyone could understand. If there was enough interest from the community, once I am done writing, and everyone wanted to chip in a few bucks and we collectively hire a 'Cactus expert", then I'd be all for it.


On a different note - the struggle of telling this story is difficult and has taken many years and hundreds of hours of research and phone calls with the best of the best. I know how the story started (Thanks to the SoJ) - and I know how the story ends ( we found a box of metallic objects via GPR at the 1847 site thanks to Tumlinson & Leasman family maps in association with the "Peralta Stone Maps") - filling in the gaps in between is taking WAY too many stone maps and trying to make sense of them - a lot of secret handshakes - aliases - 2 missing storage units of Travis' affairs - Charlie Miller and his maps / stones / tracings - Erwin and Adolph Ruth and the family that sought asylum from Mexico during their "revolution" - also understanding that the death of Mr. Ruth was a manhunt of worthwhile proportion ( has it ever crossed anyone's mind that the maps Mr. Ruth had on his body at the time of death would be the key determining factor of his murderer, should those maps become known in the community? Transferring them to a different medium, and making some "adjustments" would be a wise choice ) - taking into account that Rafael Grijalva's father lived next door to Jacob Waltz(er) - the political and economic climate of our country during the time period - all the owners of the stone maps making multiple copies of them (however, the Flagg Foundation seems to win the award ) and the damn cacti and getting dates on them, which seems near impossible.

It is my hope that once all the evidence and story lines are presented by me - we can all work towards getting the middle portion of the story told with as much information as possible. I have a lot, but I dont have all of it.

I am proud to see the research Paul (CubFan) is doing on Tnet - along with the help of "PotBellyJim" and others. Let's keep it up!

My journey with all of you is to fill in the blanks as much as possible. If I can do that with 60-70% surety - then I believe I have done well.
I was thinking more on dating the carvings them self by the layers of Scab? from being cut.

RMG1976
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:56 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Here is what happened

Post by RMG1976 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:29 am

Carrol wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:24 am
RMG1976 wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:14 am
Carrol wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:27 pm
Ryan, Thanks for the early installment!!
I have a statement /question that's a little off topic as the topic seems to be more about the stone maps.
As a kid my dad & I pictured a lot of the codes/marks that were on saguaros for later reference.
As I look at the pictures now (including you crown mark picture),
I see that the carvings look very old because of the way they aged as time goes by.
Those saguaros are dead & gone now.

Is there a way to determine how old these carvings are? I know none of us are professional saguaro carving daters, but I wonder if it's possible.
My dad located the kings royal 5th by the carvings on the cacti so those carvings had to be the real deal.
But I wonder if maybe somebody like Travis hiking thru the area 80 yrs ago or so carving cacti just for the fun of it? They are the same marks on the stone maps.

If the carvings on the saguaros can be dated back 250 yrs then they would have much more validity than the stone maps, right?

Nobody really mentions the cacti carving much at all, I thought maybe because there not there anymore or maybe because they can't be seen on Google Earth?
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Carrol

Morning Carrol,

I'm on that same exact page with you when it comes to the cacti and getting some dates on them. There are so many variables.... Talks of cacti and their age has been something the family, Lynda and I have talked about again and again and again....

There are some things I always refute and some facts I know when it comes to the age of a particular cactus.

1) Saguaro cacti can live hundreds of years. We can all agree on that, yea?
2) I have yet to find any log that dates back to say....the 1800s....and someone said "I planted this cactus seed on January 1, 1800. Here is its exact location. Then have a detailed journal of how quickly in grew during that person's life time. Then have someone else come along and follow up. and yet another person after that to follow up. Ultimately, the age of a natural cactus in the wild cannot be proven with exacting numbers, but typically about a 25-50 year range. A lot can happen in 25-50 years! The records of this state don't go back that far...after all, Arizona has only been a state for 106 years. (yes, territory before that)
3) A cactus is like any other "plant" - it can be hugely successful based upon how close it is to water and the soil conditions. If anyone has ever hiked near black top mesa, you will see a forest of HUGE cacti - very close together. Then you can go a few hundred feet away from that same location and see that the cacti become sparse again.
4) My personal opinion is it will be impossible to date a particular cactus - because there are way too many variables - they dont have rings on them like a redwood tree - then attempting to get a date of when someone carved a "crown" into the cactus, or tattooed some V's into the cactus, will be near impossible.

As part of our series, it was the plan to get the cacti dated. I had a great conversation with Dr. Glover about this exact topic, in person. He thought he knew someone that was pretty good at dating cacti, but it never manifested. Lynda also has someone down in Tucson that she thinks would be a good match.

Jumping forward to today, I have invested past the 6 figure mark into this story. I am not willing to spend any more money, as I'm sure most anyone could understand. If there was enough interest from the community, once I am done writing, and everyone wanted to chip in a few bucks and we collectively hire a 'Cactus expert", then I'd be all for it.


On a different note - the struggle of telling this story is difficult and has taken many years and hundreds of hours of research and phone calls with the best of the best. I know how the story started (Thanks to the SoJ) - and I know how the story ends ( we found a box of metallic objects via GPR at the 1847 site thanks to Tumlinson & Leasman family maps in association with the "Peralta Stone Maps") - filling in the gaps in between is taking WAY too many stone maps and trying to make sense of them - a lot of secret handshakes - aliases - 2 missing storage units of Travis' affairs - Charlie Miller and his maps / stones / tracings - Erwin and Adolph Ruth and the family that sought asylum from Mexico during their "revolution" - also understanding that the death of Mr. Ruth was a manhunt of worthwhile proportion ( has it ever crossed anyone's mind that the maps Mr. Ruth had on his body at the time of death would be the key determining factor of his murderer, should those maps become known in the community? Transferring them to a different medium, and making some "adjustments" would be a wise choice ) - taking into account that Rafael Grijalva's father lived next door to Jacob Waltz(er) - the political and economic climate of our country during the time period - all the owners of the stone maps making multiple copies of them (however, the Flagg Foundation seems to win the award ) and the damn cacti and getting dates on them, which seems near impossible.

It is my hope that once all the evidence and story lines are presented by me - we can all work towards getting the middle portion of the story told with as much information as possible. I have a lot, but I dont have all of it.

I am proud to see the research Paul (CubFan) is doing on Tnet - along with the help of "PotBellyJim" and others. Let's keep it up!

My journey with all of you is to fill in the blanks as much as possible. If I can do that with 60-70% surety - then I believe I have done well.
I was thinking more on dating the carvings them self by the layers of Scab? from being cut.
Do you or anyone else know a company or person that does such a thing? I haven’t been able to find anyone. Dating cactus carvings isn’t a very popular business model.

User avatar
cubfan64
Posts: 689
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:00 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: Here is what happened

Post by cubfan64 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:16 am

RMG1976 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 pm
Paul - if the Flagg Foundation (current owners of the stone maps) would have copies made to be placed in the museum - then why would it be hard to believe that the previous owner of the stones (Mitchell) - wouldn't do the same thing?
You're right - it's not

Post Reply