THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Moderator: Jim_b

Post Reply
Jim Hatt

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by Jim Hatt »

Joe,

The topic here is the stone crosses themselves. Not the trials and tribulations of Michael Bilbrey. That subject has already been covered to a conclusion in another discussion.

Everyone knows and agrees that Michael was convicted and served time for selling some kind of "Snake Oil". Having never heard his side of that story, I reserve judgment on the character of the man himself, and allow for the possibility that he too may have been a victim of this crime. It IS possible that he was sucked into believing that his "Cure" worked. That would make him "Stupid" to say the least, but if so, he has certainly paid for his stupidity.

He served his time for his crime (which by the way had nothing to do with the stone crosses) and is trying to put the matter behind him.

If you want to totally dismiss the stone crosses because of Bilbrey's connection with them. That's fine. Just say so and be done with it.

Once should be enough.

I will not allow you to turn this discussion into a constant Crucifixion of Michael Bilbrey.

I have a copy of the audio tape you keep referring to and have had it for many years. I read many things in it differently than you do. That's how bias works. No doubt everyone that listens to it will arrive at their own unique conclusions about it.

I have no desire to permanently ban you from this site. I think you have a lot to offer, in the way of historical knowledge on some of the subjects being discussed here, but if you are not going to participate in that spirit I will.

I believe the Stone Crosses are Authentic and fabricated by the Jesuit Order.

You believe they are Fakes and fabricated by Michael Bilbrey.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.

We can either agree to disagree on that subject, and move on to something else, or you can go post somewhere else.

Jim Hatt
Jim Hatt

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by Jim Hatt »

In order to revive this topic and get it back on track. I am going to do some recapping of information previously presented, and do a little expanding on it.

The bulk of my information about the Bilbrey crosses came from Al Reser. I had no interest in them whatsoever before Al consistently insisted that I should take them more seriously. Al was 100% sold on the stone maps, and the concept that Bilbrey’s crosses and the Latin Heart were valid parts of them.

My interest at the time was totally dedicated to the search for the Lost Dutchman Mine. To me the stone maps, hearts and crosses made no sense at all. I didn’t understand Spanish, or Latin, and from what I had been reading. The Spanish and Latin on the maps was less than what would be expected on something as important as a map to rich mines or buried treasure.

Al and I discussed this several times, and his reply was that I had to consider two things;

1 – During the time period when these maps were made. Which could have been anywhere between the late 1600’s and the mid 1800’s. Both languages were spoken differently than they are today. Some of the Spanish and Latin cannot be found in modern books of translation, but could be found in “Ancient” translation books. Some could not be found anywhere.

2 – Who ever made the maps, may have inscribed them in Spanish and Latin as required by the King of Spain, even though those languages were not “Their” primary languages.

When I questioned Al about why the stone crosses did not appear anywhere else in recorded history but Bob Ward’s book. His reply was that up until Michael Bilbrey went public with the story about finding them. He kept them very secret. (Al spent a lot of time at the old Tortilla Ranch back in those days, and had seen Michael in the area numerous times. Sometimes alone, and sometimes in the company of others, tho in later years he was always alone).

Al had met and spoken to Michael several times in the area of Tortilla Ranch, and at various places along Peter’s Trail that led from the ranch back into the area where Michael had his claims. Michael had never mentioned anything about the crosses to him. Al first learned about them when everyone else did when the stories hit the newspapers. Needless to say, he was a bit “piffed” that Michael had never taken him into his confidence before going public with the news, and sharing it with Bob Ward, but being a long time Treasure Hunter he assumed that Michael had valid reasons for doing so, and didn’t hold it against him.

Then he presented me with copies of the newspaper articles that appear in the opening post of this topic. Al was sure that Bilbrey had been working on something important, but he never figured out what it was until the the story about the crosses became public knowledge.

I questioned Al about why the words on the second heart were in Latin instead of Spanish? He had no real answer for that but he did have a theory… If the stone maps were to fall into the wrong hands… Just about anybody could translate the Spanish on them, (or have it translated) but that information would not do them any good until they translated the Latin, and figured out how to use that it. It was just one more level of security designed into the maps.

Every time I would get together with Al I had something about the “Dutchman” I wanted discuss with him and get his opinion on. Invariably Al would work the conversation back into the subject of the stone maps, hearts and crosses. Al thought I was wasting my time on the LDM and thought I should be investing my resources and youth (my age compared to his) into the stone maps and forget about the LDM. He told me: “If you solve the stone maps, I believe that one of the locations on them will be the LDM and you will recognize it when you find it!”

One day out of frustration for my lack of interest in the stone maps. he said to me: “I am going to show you something.” He brought out a pen and paper, and drew me a small map of landmarks. Then he said: “I have not seen them all myself but an old prospector named Abe Reid did, and he never lied to me, so I believe they are there, just as I have drawn them here. You have been working not too far from here searching for the “Dutchman” so you should be fairly familiar with this area. Next time you are in there, you go here, and come back and tell me if everything is, or is not located just as I have it drawn.”

I made a special trip into the mountains to look for the things on Al’s map. Sure enough, they were all right there! I went back to Al and reported to him what I had found. His reply was in Al’s true fashion…

“Of course they are! I never doubted they would be there for a minute! Now look at this!”

He then pulled out a copy of the Latin Heart on which he had translated all the Latin words to English, and while pointing to specific items one at a time said:

"See here… These are the things I drew on the map I made for you, Since you know where they are located... What do you think about the Stone Maps now?”

I was sold on the Stone Maps, Crosses and Latin Heart, Hook Line and Sinker from that day on. I never gave up on searching for the LDM with Clay, but every chance I got I tried to convert him into a Stone Map believer. I was never successful in getting him interested in them or completely converting him.

Clay was well aware of the fact that his time on trail, in search of the Dutchman was running out, and thought I should remain focused on it, and forget about the Stone Maps. I was being mentored in opposite directions, by two different Mentors, who were long time friends with each other, but disagreed about more things than they agreed on. From my position, in the middle, It appeared to be all tied together with a nice red bow, but I could not get Clay to see it that way. I believed in Al’s theory that the Stone Maps would lead to the LDM. Clay appeared to believe that if I got distracted from our search for the LDM, I would never refocus on it.

I have been openly stating for years that I believe in the stone maps (ALL the pieces of them) are authentic, and that I believe that the LDM could possibly be one of the locations on them. What I have never made clear (until now) is Why.

As far as Bilbrey’s crosses are concerned… One of the landmarks shown on them, is one of the same landmarks that Al drew on the map he made for me, and sent me into the mountains to look for. This one landmark ties all the stone maps pieces together, (including the Trail Maps), and is also identified on the Latin Heart. With that bit of information, the remainder of the landmarks on Bilbrey’s crosses are not difficult to locate. (but there are still some glitches) I know what everyone is thinking… “Why didn’t Bilbrey (or myself) find everything then?”

Everything about the stone maps is ambiguous! Cleverly designed to lead you in more than one direction, from any given point. Michael could have gone in the wrong direction, from one of those ambiguous points, and arrived the wrong conclusion. In fact, I believe he did, and strongly suspect that I know why. Maybe someday, someone, will figure out what still has me stumped. In order for that to happen. They will have to believe in the authenticity of the crosses as much as I have, invested as much time as I have, and take it all a step or two farther than I have.

I have always realized that Bilbrey could have fabricated the crosses based on his knowledge of the area, and used landmarks that he knew did exist in that area.

Weaknesses in that train of thought are:

1 – Why would he have fabricated two crosses when one would have been enough? The one with the landmarks on it would have been enough to promote a scam. Especially when he could have shown the locations of all the landmarks. (If he had made them using landmarks that he knew existed).

2 – why did he invest so much time into solving the crosses before making them public? Why did he continue searching alone after his partners lost faith?

3 – Why would he use words on the second cross that were not easily translated? To this day, I cannot find a translation for the word SOMEO. Why would he not verify the correct spelling of the other common words used?

4 – The fact that he may have tried to use them to attract investors is not evidence that they are fakes. It only indicates that he needed money to continue his search. Assuming that they are Authentic, or at least that Michael believed they were. I think most Treasure Hunters, would have done the same thing. Mel Fisher and Chuck Kenworthy operated that way for decades.

5 – The story going around about him refusing to have them authenticated is not true. He actually let Estee Conatser take possession of them, and take them to a University for the purpose of having that done. I was told this by Greg Davis, and verified it myself via direct conversation with her in her home in Apache Junction. Sadly, and just as is the case with the other pieces of the stone maps… There is no way to authentic the date of carvings on rocks once they have been cleaned of all organic material. Add to that... Some of the words were misspelled, and others were not translatable, which would cause any skeptical professional to lean towards dismissing them as not being authentic.

But ... Not a single professional that has evaluated any piece of the stone maps, has come right out and staked their reputation on their conclusions. Every "opinion" they have arrived at, has been based on superficial observances, assumptions, and the misspelled words, and they have made that clear in their conclusions. A few days walking around in the territory the maps apply to, could have a definite and opposite effect on those conclusions.

The crosses could be fakes, and they could be authentic. There is no proof either way. Personally, based on my experience in the mountains, and the credibility I place in my sources of information. I believe they are real, and Michael found them just as he said he did.

I have been going back and forth adding, subtracting and modifying this as I went along and thoughts occurred to me, so it may be a little fragmented in places. I have had to refer to notes, that I had to look up, and get along without some that I could not find. I reserve the right to come back at a later date and revise this, if I find any part of it to be in error, or incomplete.

It has been suggested, by some, that I only promote the authenticity of the stone maps for the purpose of selling reproductions. Over the course of the last 7 or 8 years, I have profited maybe as much as $1,000.00 after my expenses allowing nothing for my time. Everyone who has purchased them has been completely satisfied with them, and I have never heard a word of complaint from anyone. For the record... I sold my last complete set to Rex Western about 4 years ago, and have not made any more since. My molds are worn to the point that they are unusable. I have none for sale now, and do not expect to have any more for sale in the future.

For someone to suggest that I champion the stone maps for the purpose of selling reproductions, shows how little they really know, and what kind of person they are for publicly making those statements, with such a limited knowledge of the facts. Before long, I expect "someone" to accuse me of Moderating this Forum for no other reason, than promoting my Stone Map reproductions.

Some of the information provided herein, has been withheld from public knowledge for a long time. If I had my way, it would not even be disclosed now. I present it now, because of the amount of incorrect information (mixed with correct information, that gives it all a false appearance of being credible) about the stone crosses and Michael Bilbrey being posted on other websites, and... the possibility of my dying an untimely death in an auto accident, or something else before this story is told, disputing that incorrect information.

What a shame it would be if the last word on the Stone Maps, Michael Bilbrey and Jim Hatt were false, and everyone believed it!

Jim Hatt

Al Reser - On trail, (backpack and all) at age 90
Image

There stood a man that never knew the meaning of the words "I Quit". Just a couple of years after this picture was taken. Strapped into a wheelchair, sitting in a Rest Home, Al never gave up on trying to get Clay Worst to sneak him out of there, for one more trip into the mountains. We all knew why.


Photo of those present to escort Al's ashes, and honor him for the many years dedicated to "Chasing the Legends" - Al's last trip to the mountains.
Image
Wright 1
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:25 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by Wright 1 »

Why would discussing the stone crosses be a violation of bilbrey's parole, if he didnt get convicted for the stone crosses. If he served his time I am pretty sure his parole is over by now, so what Bilbrey may have been a con artist, or tried too hustle a few people, all that does is let me know he human. I Kind of let this topic breeze by and stopped looking at it, and thats my own fault, all he did was sell something that didnt work( Snake Oil) If people Died from this then thats a different story, I dont know how much time he did, it definitly wasnt murderer time, thats for sure......And parole, only last for so long, all he did was search them mountains, it became a part of his life, he probably even quit his day job, Im almost certain you would go broke sooner or later, how many of us out there have had too sell something of ours because we had a bill to pay, this guy only seems human, i have not heard all the FACTS so bare with me, I am only going off the post I just read. Mike Bilbrey had claims of finding gold, why not sell that if he was so broke, he might have need a new car because he was driving from california to arizona and back to california, quite often.. After turning his main focus into the crosses, and not finding anything, why not try to sell them, put yourself in his shoes, he might have owed some people some money, and was trying too pay them back.. Im not taking any sides , but Mike Bilbrey only sounds human! and now I know he still alive, he's watching, he has caused quite a stir for what, 30 years now. Come on Mike Bilbrey, what did you do with them, wher did the crosses go? Talk to us
Rex Western
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:33 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by Rex Western »

As far as Micheal Bilbery is concerned, so much is just speculation. I am more likely to follow Jim's train of thought when you just don't know. Look at the actions and make an educated assumption. Jim listed it out very well. The actions appear to lead in the direction that Micheal Bilbery was acting in a manner, as if the Stone Crosses were authentic.

As far as selling the Snake Oil and going to prison. Let me tell you a little story. I once worked for a guy who went to prison for selling herbal suppliments. The only thing he did wrong was in his ad, listed FDA approved. When in fact it was only FDA recognized or some other techincal wording. The point being, at the time, he did not know you couldn't put that in an ad, and did it very unknowingly that it was illegal. Needless to say, the FDA takes that infraction as serious as a heart attack. He had the finances for a very good defense, but still lost, and did time, I think 16 months. When he got out, he went back to selling the same herbal suppliment with proper wording, and has had no problem since. I guess the point being, he was a really good guy to work for, I trusted him, and he had done prison time. So, I cannot assasinate someones charactor for going to prison. If someone does not know Bilbery personally, without a grudge, than it is only assumption as to his character.
Jim Hatt

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by Jim Hatt »

Rex & Write1,

It's about time you two found your way back to this topic again. :D

This has been a hard battle to fight alone. I don't have enough specific details about Michael's "Snake Oil" to make any comments about it for or against him. One thing I do know (as Rex already pointed out) is that once the Gov't sets out to get you, they are going to get you no matter how many "Technicalities" they have to introduce to do it. I would like to talk to Michael someday and hear his side of the whole thing. Until that happens, I remain open minded!

Also as you both pointed out, the issue of the stone crosses goes back YEARS before the "Snake Oil" incident ever happened, and as Wright1 said, the man was rather beaten down financially by then, but everything he did was to continue to finance his continued search for whatever the crosses led to.

There can be no doubt in any rational person's mind, that Michael believed in the authenticity of the crosses. That does not make them authentic, but it goes a long ways towards helping me believe it.

The bottom line for me is this... Even if Michael had never spent a single day trying to solve them himself. I would still believe in their authenticity, based on my own observations, and evaluations of what I have seen out in the mountains.

This story is FAR from being over! The final chapter is yet to be written. I could probably write 90% of it right now, but I want that last 10% so that when I publish my "I TOLD YOU SO" nobody will be able to deny it.

Thanks for chiming in Guys! Better late than never. :D

It has been a long row to hoe alone over here.

Jim
User avatar
cubfan64
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:00 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by cubfan64 »

Jim Hatt wrote:
Al Reser - On trail, (backpack and all) at age 90
Image

There stood a man that never knew the meaning of the words "I Quit". Just a couple of years after this picture was taken. Strapped into a wheelchair, sitting in a Rest Home, Al never gave up on trying to get Clay Worst to sneak him out of there, for one more trip into the mountains. We all knew why.


Photo of those present to escort Al's ashes, and honor him for the many years dedicated to "Chasing the Legends" - Al's last trip to the mountains.
Image
Jim,

Great story about Al Reser and a FANTASTIC photo of him! There's so many folks I wish I would have had the pleasure of having met and sat around a campfire listening to out there!

It was kinda neat for me being so far away from AZ and only fairly recently involved in the LDM to be able to put names to 1/2 the folks in your bottom picture and be able to call almost that many friends :)
JoeyW
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by JoeyW »

Cubfan,

You appear to be an long time Veteran to this stuff compared to me, but I am learning fast. I'm glad I found this site. I get so tired of scrolling through page after page of arguments on the other sites about the Lost Dutchman, just to find one short paragraph that actually applies to the subject.

Interesting stories Jim, I hope you never run out of them!

Joey
User avatar
cubfan64
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:00 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by cubfan64 »

JoeyW wrote:Cubfan,

You appear to be an long time Veteran to this stuff compared to me, but I am learning fast. I'm glad I found this site. I get so tired of scrolling through page after page of arguments on the other sites about the Lost Dutchman, just to find one short paragraph that actually applies to the subject.

Interesting stories Jim, I hope you never run out of them!

Joey
I may sound like a veteran, but only really got into the LDM stuff about 3 years ago - more than just reading about it at least :)

There's ALOT of chaff to sift through to find the few grains of wheat amongst it - that's for sure! Hey, if nothing else, getting a chance to hike and explore in those mountains is a treasure unto itself - as most of the "old timers" can tell you.
JoeyW
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by JoeyW »

cubfan64 wrote: Hey, if nothing else, getting a chance to hike and explore in those mountains is a treasure unto itself - as most of the "old timers" can tell you.
I have always wanted to see what is out behind that big mountain that you can see from Apache Junction, but it looks rough out there from what you can see from the highway and the pictures that people post.
I;m not sure I amup to attempting that alone. I have friends that say they would like to go look too, but they always have "'reasons" that they can;t take the time to do it.
:D

I look at the pictures on the websites and envy the guys that get to go out there and take them. I believe you when you say it is a treasure unto itself!

Joey
User avatar
cubfan64
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:00 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES

Post by cubfan64 »

Joey, you said:
I have always wanted to see what is out behind that big mountain that you can see from Apache Junction, but it looks rough out there from what you can see from the highway and the pictures that people post. I'm not sure I amup to attempting that alone. I have friends that say they would like to go look too, but they always have "'reasons" that they can't take the time to do it.
My wife and I have lived in a number of different places over the years, and one thing I can assure you if you don't already know it... You always think you'll have time to see and experience things near where you live, but you rarely appreciate it until you move and look back and say "I wish I had...."

Since moving out east from central Illinois 6 years ago, we've made a conscious effort to see the many things near where we live now. We've been to the mountains, ocean, museums, etc... so we DON'T have to have that feeling of "wishing we had..." when we inevitably move again someday.

From your statement, I assume you live not too far from the Superstitions and if so, I can tell you there are more than a few Dutch Hunters who would give their eye teeth for the chance to live close enough to explore out there whenever they wanted (me being one!). Don't miss out on the opportunity and if you can't find anyone to go with you, go alone - I'm not saying do anything dumb, but there's a whole bunch of easy to follow trails out there that will whet your appetite for more and people hike them every day. Personally, although I really enjoy hiking with friends out there who can point things out to me, I REALLY LOVE being along out there the most - it's time to think, do what you want, when you want and just appreciate the area for what it is.

Pick up a copy of Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart's book "Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness," pick out a couple reasonable length trails, read about it, toss it in a your backpack along with water and something to munch on and to out and experience it!!! You're really missing out on something if you dont!

Ok - I'm off my soapbox now :)
Post Reply