SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Moderator: Jim_b

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:17 am

Ashton,

In your theory, does it also follow that Waltz must have lied about receiving the mine from Peralta?

Julia and Rhiney got their story directly from Jacob Waltz. The Holmes story comes......third hand, at best. Since Brownie denied writing the "Holmes Manuscript" right up to the time of his death, there is some doubt as to it's authenticity.

Thanks,

Joe

User avatar
Dirty Dutchman
Posts: 200
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:22 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: Arizona

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:50 am

Ashton,

If you feel like it, take a blank piece of paper and a pen and write down only the ITALICIZED words from the beginning of the Holmes Manuscript (The part where Dick is talking to Waltz). You will probably get the story you are looking for. Make sure you ONLY write down the italicized words, and nothing else. There are several "breaks" in the story that you'll have to watch for.

I'm sure you'll be surprised how simple the "real" story is. There will be several "clues" that are gone all of a sudden, and were obviously made up by someone.

An interesting bonus to doing this is that it suddenly becomes clear that a dying Waltz could probably have gotten all of the italicized information out in a short amount of time. I was able to fit that information on one piece of paper.

Good luck,
Travis

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:49 pm

Travis,

It seems more than likely that the portions of Brownie's manuscript that are "italicized" were done so by Dr. Glover, possibly for dramatic effect. Does he mention anything in his notes?

If not, I could ask him about it.

Take care,

Joe

User avatar
Dirty Dutchman
Posts: 200
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:22 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: Arizona

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:49 pm

Hey Joe,

You could ask Mr. Glover if you'd like, but the exact same words are italicized in Corbin's "Bible". Two different books, with certain words italicized.

It's my opinion that they must appear that way in the original writings for both authors to use them that way.

Thanks,
Travis

User avatar
AshtonPage
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:37 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: Sunny Portland, Oregon

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by AshtonPage » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:21 am

i-tsari-tsu-i wrote:Ashton,

In your theory, does it also follow that Waltz must have lied about receiving the mine from Peralta?

Julia and Rhiney got their story directly from Jacob Waltz. The Holmes story comes......third hand, at best. Since Brownie denied writing the "Holmes Manuscript" right up to the time of his death, there is some doubt as to it's authenticity.

Thanks,

Joe
Hi Joe,

I’ve always been leery of the Holmes Manuscript, for a variety of reasons.
The idea that Waltz lied to Julia and Reiney about having Weiser as a partner occurred to me when I was watching Clay’s DVD. The way Clay tells the story it sounds to me like he got this information directly from Brownie. Clay did make the point of saying that Brownie once told him; “I’ll never know if the Dutchman was telling my father the truth, but one thing I do know - I’ve never lied to you and my father never lied to me.”

Regardless of what Dick Holmes did or did not do, I have a hard time imagining a father who would lie to his own son about something he knew his son would spend the rest of his life pursuing.

So yes, in my theory Waltz would have lied about getting the mine from Peralta. Which makes me wonder – how then would Waltz know about Peralta? Going back to Clay’s presentation, initially Waltz was one of 267 men in the 1869 Cooley expedition searching for the Lost Doc Thorne Mine. When the Cooley expedition failed to locate the mine, Waltz went back into the mountains by himself to continue the search. Waltz spent a day with the three Mexicans and they talked freely about the mine. I believe the most probable source for the Peralta name coming into the equation is that one of the three Mexicans was (or once worked for) Peralta.

If I’m right about Waltz making up the story about how he came into possession of the mine, that could be one possible explanation for the multiple, lengthy pauses as he told the story to Julia and Reiney. I dunno……. the more I look at that possibility Waltz lied about partner Weiser, the more it just seems to fit.

Hi Travis,

I have a first edition of the Holmes Mss and there isn’t much in the way of italicized words in the death bed confession. Maybe later printings (if there were any) have more. My take on the Holmes Mss is the ONLY relevant items are those things Brownie personally displayed a keen interest in people finding and then reporting back to him for final directions. Which is; the saddle in the ridge, the hideout and the rock that looks like a man. As Glover puts it -> Remember, what Brownie hoped was that someone would find the rock that looks like a man and\or the rock house. In the end, these were the two major clues, the clues that he (Brownie) thought would locate the mine. He seems to have wanted people to know about TRTLLAM being associated with a Military Trail, and he apparently wanted people to know about a saddle where The Four Peaks looked like one. (Holmes Mss. pg 64)

Interesting to note that Glover goes on to say that Brownie’s refusal to tell (apparently anything) caused considerable frustration which “in some cases turned into anger that spawned the destruction of possible clues.” When one cowboy found a possible match for TRTLLAM, Brownies refusal to tell him anything ended up making the cowboy so mad at Brownie that he went back and toppled TRTLLAM into the canyon below….. I can only hope it was the wrong TRTLLAM that got toppled. But the point all this brings out is that in ‘real life’ (as opposed to a manuscript of questionable authorship) is that Brownie was only willing to give out the scantest, most meager information necessary to suit his own purpose. And that, I believe is real insight into what type, how much, how reliable, etc. sort of information Brownie would actually disseminate. Because of that I follow only those three things that Brownie himself was interested in and I treat everything else associated with Brownie and\or the manuscript as being extraneous at best and possibly (probably?) deliberate mis-direction.

Best,
Ashton

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:35 am

Ashton,

"Regardless of what Dick Holmes did or did not do, I have a hard time imagining a father who would lie to his own son about something he knew his son would spend the rest of his life pursuing."

I look at it a bit differently. Once Dick stole the box of ore from under Waltz's death bed he had to make up a story on how he got it. The story may have gotten a little more detailed as the decades passed, until we ended up with the Holmes Manuscript.

Dick firmly believed that Waltz had a very rich mine in the Superstitions and wanted his son to be the one to find it. He did have information that was, next to Julia and Rhiney's, probably as good as it gets for the time. We all know, that Brownie did not tell all that he knew, much of which was probably passed on from his father.

As for what Clay Worst says publicly and privately, I have been told by many of his friends that Clay would not tell "anyone"
clues/information that he believed were valuable in finding the LDM. Many who considered themselves to be his partner, believed otherwise.

One of the alleged wedges between Clay and Jim Hatt, was that Jim wanted information that Clay refused to divulge. When you are friends with older Dutch Hunters, you will hear that story.....often.

Having said that, I know that Clay Worst is one of the finest gentlemn in Arizona. He's the ultimate straight shooter......just don't expect to find the LDM from conversations with him.

What I have just written is just my opinion......based on what I consider very good information.

Take care,

Joe

User avatar
silent hunter
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:27 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: Apache Junction

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by silent hunter » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:13 pm

Joe I was told that same story by Jim Hatt.....Clay's story he tells at the musium is just a Great story......If anyone here thinks that Clay Worst no longer is involved in the search for the Duchman better think again...



AKA...............

"Mr. Know it all"
Kurt Painter

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:58 pm

Kurt,

It's nice to have it confirmed by "Mr. Know it all" ;) that one thing I was told is correct. I can take it to the bank now. :D

Take care,

Joe

User avatar
Dirty Dutchman
Posts: 200
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:22 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4
Location: Arizona

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by Dirty Dutchman » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:31 pm

Ashton,

I agree with you on what Brownie probably divulged and his reasonings for doing so. But I think you should go back and read the part about the "saddle" again very carefully. Even Brownie screwed up his own directions, if the Manuscript is to be trusted. (Just so there's no confusion, I DO trust the clues in the Manuscript)

It doesnt say anywhere in the actual ITALICIZED directions from Waltz that there will be a saddle that the Four Peaks line up as one, and the Needle is to the South. Now Brownie INTERPRETED those clues that way, but that's NOT what they actually say. In my opinion, he ignored or misinterpreted his own directions/clues.

Read that part again if you'd like and see if you can tell what i'm talking about.

Thanks,
Travis

User avatar
cubfan64
Posts: 674
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:00 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by cubfan64 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:30 pm

I deleted a recent post as it was off topic and unnecessary

Just a quick reminder to keep threads on topic and away from personal attacks - Jim never let this forum get out of hand and asked me to do the same before he passed away.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests