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Jim and Travis - like I said before, that theory bringing in the Reavis Land Fraud really seems like a reasonable theory and one that at least in a few of our minds has real potential.

Hello,

It makes the MOST sense to me, but whenever i bring it up it brings up too much of an arguement. To many people "close" their minds to it when you mention the Reavis thing. They assume it was ALL fabrication and in my mind, it's not.

This also gives meaning to the "Ortiz letter". People say there was no "large land grant" but after reading on Reavis, it was called a "Church Grant" and seems as though it could have been very real. It just wasnt "honored" like it was supposed to have been. Peralta knew this a sold the "grant" to Reavis. (I actually read that a "Peralta" sold it to Reavis) The only reason i researched anything on the Reavis fiasco was to try to find an answer to the "Large land grant" questions but in the end it gave another reason for why Waltz never claimed the mine.

In keeping with the topic, I still believe Dick "assumed" when he wrote of why Waltz never filed a claim. I dont think Dick had any clue as to why and was making it up for his "story".

Thanks,
Travis

Travis,

Interesting that you bring up the "Ortiz Letter". I am working on an introduction to a new topic about that as we speak. I have a copy of the Ortiz Map and letter that predates the one in Corbin's book by about 40 years, and has a very interesting background story. As it turns out... The original "Ortiz Map" as it has come to be known, still exists somewhere in So. Calif. (Long story that I am still researching as I write it up)

I got my copy of it from a guy I used to work with at the Palo Verde Nuclear Plant, who got it from his Aunt, who... with her husband, owned the original for a long time.

Best,

Jim

Jim,

Thats awesome! Are you going to post the letter, or "keep it for your very own"?

Travis

Travis,

I intend to post it with the story as soon as I am finished researching and writing it. I am hoping to get a better copy of the original, because all I have right now is a xerox copy of an old b/w photo.

Jim

Jim Exellent topic!! I have been waiting for someone to discuss the Ortiz Letters.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter

Sorry I haven't opened that topic yet Kurt. I haven't forgotten about it. I am still trying to locate the current owner of the ORIGINAL map to get a better copy of it. If I don't find it soon. I will go with what I have now.

Best,

Jim

Can't wait for that one Jim.

From the first time I picked up Glover's Book on the Holmes Manuscript, I had huge misgivings. The first thing that shot me in the head was the timeline presented. The manuscript acts like you have to lose your memory from one page to the next.

He supposedly met "Old Snow" in 1888. Waltz told Julia that he was last at his mine in 1884. ?? ?? ?? ??

Also the Mr Pipps Story. Sounds eerily like Deering's Story to me, unless you want to believe that two men found that mine, left the area, then died while digging out a water well. And also while they were stuck, they both offered to share this mine if they were saved, but unfortunately they both were lost. Amazing coincidence!

I think that whomever the third party was that helped Brownie write that piece embellished to the point to exaggeration his story. I also think it is possible that Dick made up some of the groundwork to give himself a bit more credibility. That's why he would have lied about some of his story even to his son. Who wants their kid to think poorly of them?

Best-Mike

Good Morning Mike,

It's good to see you recovering enough to get back into the discussions. (For anyone who didn't know. Mike was in a serious motorcycle accident a few months back, and has spent a lot of time in the hospital. I only found out about this myself in just recently, otherwise, I would have posted something about it in the forums a lot earlier).

gollum wrote:Also the Mr Pipps Story. Sounds eerily like Deering's Story to me, unless you want to believe that two men found that mine, left the area, then died while digging out a water well. And also while they were stuck, they both offered to share this mine if they were saved, but unfortunately they both were lost. Amazing coincidence!

Although there may have been an author out there somewhere that said Deering died while digging in a water well. Most accounts state that he died on the operating table, after suffering a broken leg and internal injuries, in a cave-in at the Silver King mine.
Sims Ely Pg 77.

gollum wrote:He supposedly met "Old Snow" in 1888.

Mike, Are you sure you read this in the Holmes manuscript? (Assuming "He" refers to Dick Holmes) It sounds like something that might have come from Robert Joseph Allen's fictional novel?

gollum wrote:Waltz told Julia that he was last at his mine in 1884. ?? ?? ?? ??

This does not sound familiar to me Mike. Do you know where you read it? Identifying sources are very important for 2 reasons.

1 - It allows the rest of us to go read what you read, and see if it (in context) can be taken more than one way.

2 - Every author/source has a different level of credibility. ie: Gene Botts and Robert Joseph Allen for example, both wrote fictional novels about the LDM, and a lot of their fictional information, has made it into the mainstream of Dutchman Lore. It is hard to justify using anything written by a fictional author, to "challenge" the validity of something that was written by a credible nonfiction author.

I know you are pretty much "immobilized" and it is probably hard (if not impossible) for you to get to your references, so I am not pushing you for answers right away. In the mean time... Maybe someone else has read the same things, and can provide the sources.

gollum wrote:From the first time I picked up Glover's Book on the Holmes Manuscript, I had huge misgivings.

And... They never go away, no matter how many times you go back to the Holmes Manuscript do they Mike?

This is just my personal opinion... But the sooner you dismiss the Holmes Manuscript. The sooner you will be able to focus your time and efforts, on something that may produce some results in the field. If Dick/Brownie ever did know anything of value (and I do believe they did). I don't believe any of it ever made it's way into the manuscript, but none of us will ever know for sure until after the mine is found.

Best wishes for a speedy and full recovery from your injuries,

Jim

Jim,

Everything in my post (except Deering) was straight from Glover's Book "The Holmes Manuscript".

Met "OLD SNOW" about 1888 pg. 35

Waltz last being at his mine in 1884 pg. 45

The manuscript also states that Waltz was last at his mine during the winter of 1892.

Glover posits that Dick must have followed Waltz sometime about 1880. Kind of hard if he didn't meet him until 1888.

Best-Mike