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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:57 pm
by Tyroler
Think you can't use your knowledge if you find the Mine,as it would be in a National Park :-(

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:33 pm
by Jim Hatt
Tyroler wrote:Think you can't use your knowledge if you find the Mine,as it would be in a National Park :-(


Wouldn't you have to know where it was, before you could form that conclusion?


Should I, or shouldn't I?
Should I, or shouldn't I?
Should I, or shouldn't I?

I think I will just let it pass, as if I never saw it.

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:59 pm
by condoraz
Jim, without being obnoxious... ya have to be there in August to appreciate the depth of the Superstitions. I worked for "Crazy Jake", a true character... a dangerous character, that ended up in the "big house", "monkey house", or whatever else you would call it! The State Attorney General put him there, and all because of his greed. Wish I had a good horse and a Bud to visit the Hoya again..., ~3 miles north of the "Sombrero"! Maybe I should write a book! :idea:
Cibola... a City, or is it really a place of gold... like the Seven Places of Gold??? Or Mines!

Re: DOCUMENTARY - The Lost Dutchman Mine ~ Behind The Scenes ~

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:14 pm
by Tyroler
Well,after reading of Years about the Pioneers of America and all the difference from North to South and east to West found i a Story which was fascinating.
It was a Story of a lost Mine,and the Direction as known.
Actually dreamed i Years ago goin with two Horses in the Mountains,and on the Way uphill were a Cave i stood for Longer,as Winter approached unexpected early with lots of Snow.Build from Wood somethings like a stable outside,and i stood inside.
Now,it's when i read about the lost Dutchman's Mine
Interesting for me is that i never was interested to look in Goldmines or so.
Don't know what i shall think about it,as i have more Nevada in mind

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:13 pm
by Jim Hatt
Welcome to the forum condoraz,

I'll bet my newest shirt that you have some interesting stories to tell.
I'm looking forward to hearing some of them.
I have started a new Sub-Sub-Forum for personal stories about experiences and adventures in the Superstitions.

It is at:

There must be at least a few stories that you can share with us, without making Ole' Jake roll over in his grave?

BTW: I don't there has been a single AUGUST since 1990 that I have not been in the mountains. I have done a lot of July & August (Worst two months of the year) hiking/camping out there.


Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:13 am
by Gerald D. Sain
:mrgreen: In the book by Helen Corbin, ''THE BIBLE'', CHAPTER 6, page 184,186,187, states, German Translations of Directions to Mine. (LDM)

If Jacob Waltz spoke in German, how did Holmes and Roberts understand him when they couldn't speak German, or could they. This is the first time i've herd of this.

If Jacob did speak in German to them and they wrote it down as so, this is the TRUE manuscripts. Now i know if someone spoke in a differant language to me, and i am to write it down, in translation, i could be calling someone some really bad names. I do not beleive that Jacob spoke to them in German, if he did, they would have corrected him and for him to speak in English.

Someone tell me where to find the GERMAN MANUSCRIPT on the directions to the Lost
Dutchman or do they exsist. :oops:

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:18 am
by Gerald D. Sain
:mrgreen: Thank you JIM.
I agree with you a 100%. If Holmes and Roberts were at his bedside when he died, then the other two had no knowladge of what was said.
I have read all that she said they said, this why the post.
I'm sorry, but again I am useing the computer.
I am useing YAHOO/BABEL FISH translation;
As useual, I am probably doing something wrong.
Gerald :oops:

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:44 pm
by i-tsarl-tsu- i
Helen Corbin was not well when the "Bible" was being finished. She was under a great deal of pressure from her publisher to complete the book. That is the primary reason for the, somewhat, disjointed look of the final product. She was a gifted author and should not be judged on that book alone.

I believe Bob Corbin was Helen's primary source for much of her LDM material. If I had any questions about the information or "facts" contained in her writings, Bob would be the man I would ask.

I suspect that much that has been written, as well as spoken, about the LDM is
pure fiction. I have never heard a story told about the LDM, where the teller did not sound convinced of it's truthfulness.


Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:06 pm
by Jim Hatt
i-tsarl-tsu- i,

I think you (along with everyone ese that has spent more than 10 minutes in this Forum) have probably caught on to the fact by now, that I am a strict believer in Sims Ely version of everything. Anything that conflicts with Ely goes in the "Bogus" file, as far as I am concerned. There have been times when I have had to reconsider some things, and put them into the "?" file for a while, but they eventually ended right back in the "Bogus" file.

That said, let me also make it clear that just because I classify something as "Bogus", does not in any way make it a fact! It just means that I personally have determined, to my own satisfaction, that it is not worthy of spending any of my time on.

I tossed all of my "Adolph Ruth" information into the "Bogus" file years ago. Not because I don't believe any of it, but because I am sure that if I were to solve who killed Ruth. It still would not put me any closer to what I am searching for.

Same thing goes for what ship Jacob Waltz came over on, or if Jacob Weiser ever really existed?

"The road to success is dotted with many tempting parking places.
~Author Unknown~

To me, these things are just tempting parking places, that advance you to nowhere, and eat up your time and life in the process!

The case of Michael Bilbrey has been in and out of my "Bogus" file so many times that I finally made a copy of it and keep them in both my "Bogus" & "?" files.

I would have given up on that "Tempting Parking Spot" yeas ago, if I wasn't so interested in finding out where the original crosses are, and possibly getting them donated to the SMHS museum. (A quest I started out on way back when I was the Manager of the Museum, and have never given on)

Jim Hatt

LDM Lore - What to Believe and What to Throw

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:12 pm
by Roger

Interesting perspective you have on LDM research in using Sims Ely as your touchstone.

I guess my views on Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" are summarized well by Thomas Glover in his book, "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Part 1: The Golden Dream". On Pages 28/29 Thomas wrote:

"As for Ely's book, The Lost Dutchman Mine, in the mid-1940's Northcutt Ely and his brothers suggested that their father, Sims, write-up the story of his and Bark's searching for the mine. Sims was approaching 90 and it was felt that the project would likely both bring happy memories and help to stave off any approaching senility by keeping Sims' mind active. The Spangler family (Jim Bark's nephew's family - my note) agreed to the project and to Sims using "The Bark Notes" as a reference, if, and only if, certain parts of "The Notes" either be changed or left out entirely. Nether "The Notes" or Sims' book were to compromise the Spangler and Ely families' continuing search for the mine."

Thomas had some very good sources for the above information and I believe it to be true.

I would place The Bark Notes on a higher level of creditability that Ely's book. In fact, I have really only used The Bark Notes and not taken anything of substance from Ely. I have collected LDM clues from a large number of sources - some that correlate to Bark and some that are different. The challenge then becomes of sorting the good, the bad, and the ugly and boiling it down to a short list of clues that have meaning to my view of what mountain(s) the mine is most likely on, what the mine location looks like physically, what the real "cave" clues are, what of the "rock or stone house" clues fit, where the "stone face" is, where the mine is relative to all of these, etc, and how to get to it. I think everyone that does serious LDM research and hunting goes though this same process.

What makes it interesting is that each of those doing LDM research/searching tend to end up in very different places in the Superstitions. As Jim Bark wrote in the Introduction to The Notes, "Someone will fit the parts together more successfully than I have done. Good luck to him." Hopefully, one of us will get it right!!!