GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

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i-tsarl-tsu- i
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by i-tsarl-tsu- i » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:22 pm

Roger,

Nice post.

I have always found myself going back to Ely's book.......where it relates to the Thomas/Petrasch story. I believe, where it matches up with the Bark Notes, is where the truth lies. It all starts with Bark finding Julia and Rhiney camped near the entrance to Hog Canyon. Both Ely's and Bark's accounts match on this story, and it seems like an unimportant detail. I suspect that the families thought so to.

That story, it seems to me, is the begining of the search for the LDM. Whenever we lose the trail, we are taught to go back to the last known track. Hog Canyon is that place for me. As you have said, that place is an individual choice for each Dutch Hunter, based on a myriad of reasons/clues.

As Julia and friends progressed farther and farther from that initial starting place, she became more and more confused. In the end, it was no longer her search. It's a familiar story in the lives of many Dutch hunters.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

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The Bark Notes

Post by Roger » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:21 am

Joe,

The one thing that does bother me is the last sentence in Thomas Glover's quote above:

"Neither "The Notes" or Sims' book were to compromise the Spangler and Ely families' continuing search for the mine."

Does this mean that "The Notes" in public circulation today have been altered from what was originally documented in Bark's research findings? I do think Bark planned to publish The Notes as written at some point so suspect some things were altered. But then again, why would Spangler carry them with him into the Supers as he searched for the LDM if they were altered? Possibly he knew what was altered or maybe they weren't altered.

Jim Hatt has some excellent comments on his last posting under The Bark Notes on this topic as to the validity of Bark's notes in the public domain. Again it boils down to separating the wheat from the chaff and I can attest from personal experience that there are very few "grains of truth" scattered in with the chaff.

Roger

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by cubfan64 » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:28 am

The "rub" in all of these discussions lies pretty much exclusively on where one believes the preponderance of "truth" lies - that's why people tend to find themselves in so many different areas of the Superstitions thoroughly convinced of the certainty that THEIR AREA is the right one.

If one were to truly research EVERY aspect and lead involved in the LDM hunt, I would hazard a guess that it would take more than one lifetime to do (in some cases it already has), and much of it would lead to dead ends and wasted years of research.

In the search, one ultimately has to make a decision as to who's "wagon to hitch themselves to," and accept some things as fact as a basis for their search. Not everyone's "facts" can be right, so the only certainty is that all but one of the versions of the truth is closest to the real thing.

We're all faced with base questions that we have to answer in order to progress down the search and research path...

Is Ely's story closest to the truth, or are they a romanticized vague rememberances of a 90 year old man based on errant notes?

Are the Bark Notes closest to the truth, or have they been altered and put out there in the public to steer people away from the right area?

What significance (if any) do the Peralta Stones have to do with anything?

Is the Holmes version of events closest to the truth or was he thoroughly misguided by Waltz?

Should we try to follow Julia's trail after Waltz's death assuming she had "inside information" from Waltz, or was she thoroughly confused from the start as well?

These are all good questions, and the answers for each one of us lays the foundations for the path we take on future searches and research. The most difficult part comes when one has solidly built that foundation, but in the future subconsciously tries to force pieces of the puzzle to fit when they may not.

I've formed some opinions myself, but I don't have nearly enough "foot on ground" experience to consider them to be anything more than vague opinions. I guess in a way that's good because I'm open minded to alot of things, but it also means I can be diverted easily in too many different directions.

As others have said, I think the real treasure for many of us is in the search for the truth :)

Jim Hatt

Re: LDM Lore - What to Believe and What to Throw

Post by Jim Hatt » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:29 am

Roger wrote:I guess my views on Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" are summarized well by Thomas Glover in his book, "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Part 1: The Golden Dream". On Pages 28/29 Thomas wrote:

"As for Ely's book, The Lost Dutchman Mine, in the mid-1940's Northcutt Ely and his brothers suggested that their father, Sims, write-up the story of his and Bark's searching for the mine. Sims was approaching 90 and it was felt that the project would likely both bring happy memories and help to stave off any approaching senility by keeping Sims' mind active. The Spangler family (Jim Bark's nephew's family - my note) agreed to the project and to Sims using "The Bark Notes" as a reference, if, and only if, certain parts of "The Notes" either be changed or left out entirely. Nether "The Notes" or Sims' book were to compromise the Spangler and Ely families' continuing search for the mine."

Thomas had some very good sources for the above information and I believe it to be true.
Roger
Thomas did have some good sources. He also had some "Not so good" ones! He didn't appear to discriminate between them as far as I can see. He did a short explanation of my family history based on 2nd, 3rd, or possibly even 4th hand information, and printed it without doing any independent verification of the accuracy of it. With that in mind. I read his book with a certain amount of caution.

Some of his sources did not even know that he was collecting information for a book, until AFTER they had taken him into their confidence.

There is a whole separate Topic dedicated to the Bark Notes Roger.
It is at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=398

It explains why I personally favor Ely's book over the Bark Notes, but it is up to each individual to make up his own mind who he chooses to believe.

Jim


Post Update... I guess I should have read everyone Else's reply to Roger before I made this one. I could have saved myself a lot of typing, and just said "Ditto"! :D

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by djui5 » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:02 am

cubfan64 wrote: Should we try to follow Julia's trail after Waltz's death assuming she had "inside information" from Waltz, or was she thoroughly confused from the start as well?
No :) Her first trip into the mountains had her climbing up Hog Canyon trying to get over the main mountain. There could be a million reasons why that happened. Who knows, but it is obvious she had never been into the mountains before and for some reason was the leader of the expedition.

If we follow in the footsteps of others, we end up in the same place they ended up. So far no one has found the mine that the public knows of, so consider that. I really think finding the mine is going to require some outside perspective and drastically different thinking.

Jim Hatt

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by Jim Hatt » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:18 pm

i-tsarl-tsu- i wrote:Roger,

Nice post.

I have always found myself going back to Ely's book.......where it relates to the Thomas/Petrasch story. I believe, where it matches up with the Bark Notes, is where the truth lies. It all starts with Bark finding Julia and Rhiney camped near the entrance to Hog Canyon. Both Ely's and Bark's accounts match on this story, and it seems like an unimportant detail. I suspect that the families thought so to.
Joe,

I'm not as sure that Ely's Book, and Bark's notes agree on this point as you appear to be. From page 114 of Ely's book he said: " Fully confident that she and Reiney would find the mine and the cache without trouble she had sold her business shortly after Walt's death. Spending her money lavishly, Helena hired a team and light wagon and drove with Reiney to First Water on the northerly side of the Superstition wall. Thence the two walked into the mountains with packs on their backs.


Here is what I get from the "Probert" version of the Bark Notes:

"As I was riding the range, about six miles west of the home ranch, in August of 1892 or 1893 I met some campers near an old well belonging to the ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas, and a young man about eighteen years old by the name of Rhiney Petrasch, who Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted. Thomas was German and all three spoke the German language. I had a speaking acquaintance at the time with all three, as I had met them in their bakery in Phoenix. I think it was the only bakery and ice cream parlor there at the time. It was generally known in Phoenix, that Mr. Thomas had run away with another woman. and Mrs. Thomas No. 1 and the boy Petrasch were still running the bakery. So I was somewhat surprised to meet them camped near the Superstition Mountains, as it was very hot and an extremely desolate country to camp in. I asked them why they were camped there, and she replied that they were out on a vacation. I invited them to come up to the house as they would at least would have shade. She replied that they were going back in a short time, so I rode up the canyon following their buggy tracks and they had gone up the canyon toward the Superstition Mountains as far as it was possible to go with a horse and buggy, and much farther than I thought possible
At that time. I did not know that they had closed shop in Phoenix for good, but such proved to be the case. Afterward Mrs. Thomas and the boy were frequently seen by the cowboys. camped first at one water bole. then another over in the main Superstition Range, but always with saddle horses and pack animals."

I could be wrong, but I don't think Hog Canyon is mentioned anywhere in Ely's book or The Bark Notes..

Believe me, I know how things can all run together in your head after so many years of this! Happens to me all the time! That is what we're all here for. To help each other sort it all out.


Jim

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Thomas Glover's Sources

Post by Roger » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:43 am

Jim.

As I indicated in my first posting on Glover's input on Ely's book, I was only commenting on the paragraph I quoted as to Glover's sources. Can't vouch for the rest of the book.

Roger

Jim Hatt

Re: LDM Lore - What to Believe and What to Throw

Post by Jim Hatt » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:12 am

Roger wrote:

"As for Ely's book, The Lost Dutchman Mine, in the mid-1940's Northcutt Ely and his brothers suggested that their father, Sims, write-up the story of his and Bark's searching for the mine. Sims was approaching 90 and it was felt that the project would likely both bring happy memories and help to stave off any approaching senility by keeping Sims' mind active. The Spangler family (Jim Bark's nephew's family - my note) agreed to the project and to Sims using "The Bark Notes" as a reference, if, and only if, certain parts of "The Notes" either be changed or left out entirely. Nether "The Notes" or Sims' book were to compromise the Spangler and Ely families' continuing search for the mine."

Thomas had some very good sources for the above information and I believe it to be true.
I'm not trying to corner you Roger, but you are treading on some rather hallowed ground here. I (and a number of other people) have been trying to track down some of Glover's sources since the day his book came out. If Glover doesn't tell you himself. (he did not give his sources for this information in his book) How are you going to know for sure who his source was?

Second hand information? Speculation?

In my opinion... repeat: MY OPINION, because I cannot prove it. It looks to me like Glover was sucked in, fell for, and repeated a story told to him by someone, that was promoting the concept that Ely's book cannot be trusted. He is clearly in the "Holmes Camp" about as deep as anybody can get. That would be my last choice for unbiased information about Ely (The Thomas/Petrasch Camp).

The Holmes/Roberts version of things has so many internal contradictions within itself, that it has been on the verge of collapse, since the day Dick Holmes walked out of Julia's house, with the 48 pounds of ore from under Waltz's death bed. Ely's version of the story has to be discredited constantly, for the Holmes camp to continue to exist.

No doubt, members of the Holmes camp know all about the attempt to deceive that took place in my story about the Bark Notes at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=398
and they capitalize on that incident every chance they get.

I explained it clearly in my opening statement to the Topic titled
SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=392
and I repeat it here. Ely was not the kind of man that let anybody tell him what to do, or let anyone back him into a compromise. He did not need bark's Notes to write his book. He was there himself. He interviewed the same people Bark did, and heard the same stories from the same sources.

When you blow away all the smoke and lies. The only thing left standing, is Sims Ely's documented record of what actually took place.

Think about this for a minute. If Ely had been using the Bark Notes to write his book. Don't you think he would have been careful to avoid any direct contradictions? On the other side of the coin... Let's say he did use the Bark Notes, and he was careful not make any direct contradictions. If that were the case. He could not have been using the same document we know as the "Bark Notes".


Please read my introduction to Ely's book at: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=392
and reply to it there if you still believe Ely was cornered into compromising himself and what he believed to be the truth in his book?

Jim


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Identified Sources

Post by Roger » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:29 am

Jim,

A couple of points:

1. I am not at liberty to name any sources at this time - such is the nature of LDM research as one must respect the wishes of others. Again, that is the only source info I have on any of Thomas's work other than what is in the book.

2. I am 100% with you that the Holmes tale is nothing more than a compilation of information that Dick Holmes gathered from around Phoenix plus some from Julia and maybe Rhiney. Even if Holmes was at Waltz's deathbed (which I don't think he was), the drawn out tale in Brownie's manuscript is not believable. I think that the Petrasch story is the correct one and I use it to evaluate other LDM clues. At the same time, I have cross correlated the Holmes clues to the Petrasch clues and there are some fits that one must look at as valuable.

3. I did read your introduction to Ely's book - read every posting on your Forum when I first found it. It's an excellent forum and you are providing some great content. The photo's and stories of your adventures are a great addition to discussing the LDM lore. I'm now concerned about bears when I go into the Supers!!!

4. I have no answers on what Ely's intentions were when he wrote his book. Did he write it 100% accurate based on his personal experiences? Did he put some colorful spins on his stories as was the practice by newspaper editors/writers in the late 1800? Did he intentionally change some facts such as distances and directions or leave out some key info that would have been critical to finding the LDM? There may be a few people out there that know the answer to these type question, but don't think we will hear anything on it.

I'm not trying to stir up any controversies here. I sure can't say one person's approach to researching the LDM is better or worse than another person's or mine. I'm just trying to look at what is available to a LDM researcher with some digging and then trying to put the puzzle pieces together that I think are relevant. Like Bark said, the first one to put the pieces together and find the LDM is the winner!! I don't have a mine to show anyone either.

Take care,

Roger

Jim Hatt

Re: Identified Sources

Post by Jim Hatt » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:59 am

Roger wrote:Jim,

A couple of points:

1. I am not at liberty to name any sources at this time - such is the nature of LDM research as one must respect the wishes of others. Again, that is the only source info I have on any of Thomas' work other than what is in the book.

Roger
I fully understand where you are coming from here Roger. I have reluctantly had to resort that statement myself a few times. When we do that, it is with the understanding that the information presented under that cover is immediately placed into the "Legends & Lore" category, and loses a lot of credibility.

I had to use that cover in my story about Mr. X, Mr. Y & Mr. Z, and I explained right up front that I was not presenting it as historical fact.

When you look at it in that light... Isn't a large portion of Glover's book that is presented as "Fact", really no more than, Legends and Lore? He just wasn't up front in admitting it.

You're good for this forum Roger. You keep me on my toes.


Jim

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