GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

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djui5
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Re: Identified Sources

Post by djui5 »

Jim Hatt wrote: You're good for this forum Roger. You keep me on my toes.
Jim
Roger is good for the entire Dutchman community :D He always has great insight and a new perspective on things. He's a great researcher too.

ok, anyway, back to the thread.

Gerald D. Sain
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by Gerald D. Sain »

SAIN here;
This is suppose to be a map drawn by Jacob Waltz several months before his death.
Now, I may be looking at this right, or wrong, but the fact is that nobody has found it at ''X'', so lets look at it the way Jacob drew it.
Here he is standing in front of his gold mine, looking out accross the mountains. This is a view he looks at everytime he leaves his mine.
As you can tell, if he was standing at ''X'', Weiver's needle and Miner's needle would be backwards from this map.
To his left is Weiver's needle and to his far right is Miner's needle. In the distance, he can see 4 peaks. In the mountain terrain, somewhere before 4 peaks, he has seen the shape of an ''X''.
Now, ''X'' don't mean doodlely, its just there to through you off.

Image


This is a rough drawing that was suppose to be found after Jacobs death. You will note that the two resembles each other, both south to north views.
What else can I say, all the clues are there, we just have to look, look, and re-look to see the way Jacob confused out thoughts and now it time to change our way of thinking.


Image

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by cubfan64 »

Mr. Sain,

If I understand you correctly, you are implying that perhaps the "map" drawn is a view FROM the mine rather than a view TO the mine, and that the lines that cross one another have no significance as to "X marks the spot" so to speak.

I definitely like the idea of thinking outside the box and trying to view things from different perspectives, but if your theory is correct and assuming (big assumption of course) that the Dick Holmes map is "real," I don't see any way to pinpoint the location the drawing was made from. There's no depth of field information anywhere associated with the drawing - as long as you can put Miner's Needle to the right, Weaver's Needle to the left and the 4 peaks to the north, the spot could be anywhere. Then one has to make the leap of faith that the 3 "markers" are indeed Weaver's and Miner's Needle and that the 4 peaks are the same 4 peaks to the N of the Salt River.

For me that's just too many assumptions and without accurate spoken directions to go with the drawn map, it just seems to me to be fruitless to put much significance in it.

In addition, I remember when I read Ms. Corbin's book and first saw those 2 drawings and thinking the same thing I think when I see them side by side today. Any real resemblence in my opinion is minimal at best - I honestly don't think they look much like each other at all.

I hope you don't take my comments as a personal attack or insult - I honestly do believe one of the best ways to look at the LDM search is to try to see it from different viewpoints - I just personally don't think in this case I see it the same way as you do.

As an aside - do any of Julia's original "sold" maps exist today? I've been meaning to ask someone who has a large collection of LDM items if he has an authentic copy. I suppose the problem of course is knowing what really IS an authentic copy - but one would think that if Julia sold even a reasonable amount of them that they would show up folded up in some deceased relatives bible, stuffed in a cedar chest or something like that - no?

Zen
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by Zen »

The drawing above that was posted in Helen Corbins book was from a piece of paper found on Herman Petraschs mantle after his death. I am not sure of the source but I would think it would have either been one of the Martin family members or Bob Garman who arrived back at Hermans after a trip in the mountains, the day Herman died.

Rendezvous is coming, so here is the email I sent out earlier.

On October 23rd,24th and 25th The 5th annual Dutch Hunters Rendezvous will be held at the Dons camp in the Superstition Mountains. The Dons camp is located off Peralta Road just before the Peralta trailhead parking lot, south of Apache Junction off of Route 60 to Florence Junction. The Peralta road is a well maintained forestry service road that provides access to all vehicles entering the wilderness area.

Camping is first come, first serve and we kindly ask those with horses to camp and stage them in the upper parking lot. There are toilet facilities at the camp, but no running water. We will be having our nightly campfire at the main ramada Friday and Saturday nights. Author Jack San Felice was our special guest and gave a wonderful presentation in 2007. The Historical law enforcement group "The Arizona Rangers" made a presentation on their history to kick the evening off. In 2008 Clay Worst and Bob Corbin covered the Ruth and Crazy Jake sagas on different nights.

Whether you are looking to pick the mind of Superstition Hiking guide author Jack Carlson or sample some of the Ribaudo stew (First come, first serve and the best free meal I have ever had in the mountains), there is something for everyone. Come for the evening campfire or stay the weekend, everyone is welcome and feel free to join in and ask questions.

Past rendezvous have featured hikes to the Soldiers grave in Barkley basin, The Dacite Mines, Chuck Crawfords Bark canyon claims and tours of the historical Quarter Circle U ranch.

I would like to thank the Dons club, Howard Hornick and the Backus family, Greg Davis, Randy Wright and Joe &Caroline Ribaudo for all their assistance.


Wayne Tuttle

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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by roward »

I have a thought rearding Gerald's idea that the view shown on the map is actually looking from the mine. It just seems to me that the view is what one would see when approaching the mine. As Waltz usually came from the area of the Bark ranch, which I believe is southwest, I think the view would be north or northeast. Notice there are three hills, and the X is on the far right hill near the top, just where most people have described the mine as being located. There are probably a lot of places in the Supes where there are three hills side by side, but what jumps out at me is the clue which someone, maybe not Waltz, but someone, gave that "if you pass the three red hills you have gone too far". The three red hills along the "old military trail", which is perhaps the old First Water trail which passes three well known red hills. Why couldn't the X mark the location of the mine near the top of the third red hill? I don't know what the topography is like there, and I'd love to see a picture of the area, but is it just possible the mine is located there? If it's been covered up so you couldn't see it from three feet away, it would explain why it hasn't been found. Does this area match with any of the other clues to the location of the mine, i.e., across from a cave? Waltz said you couldn't see the mine from the military trail, but you could see the trail from the mine. If you were near the top of the third red hill, which I'm assuming is the southerly most one, can you see some part of that First Water trail, but standing on the trail not be able to see much below the top of that hill? For you guys who live out there and are familiar with the area and can go out there and check it out on a saturday, it might be interesting just to see what you can find. If I was anywhere close, that's what I'd do. Being in Pennsylvania is sort of a major obstacle, though. Like I said, just a thought, but it's the kind of dumb hunch that would have me out there scrambling around if I could. Jim, you said that youknow where the three red hills are-does any of this make sense in light of your knowledge of the area?

Zen
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by Zen »

Oops, my bad. The drawing above from what I have always been told was reffered to as the Holmes map, but neither Dick or Brownie knew where it came from. Probably someones composite from the Holmes clues and if it is based on an actual map, it is probably a dodgy facsimile as the profile map has been proven to be.

For those who wonder at the last sentence above, Djui5 did a great job tracking the original tracings of the profile map and the original source map is nothing like the Magill rendering. Randy did great work presenting the various changes from the orginal and it raises a lot of questions about all maps authenticity as pertaining to the LDM.

The map I alluded to is in a thread elsewhere and is likely a rendering of one of a series of drawings that Waltz sketched out for Rhiney Petrasch. It is unlikely it is an original since Rhiney burned all his possessions and papers before committing suicide.

Gottfried had Waltzs map that was on manila paper I believe via Julia Thomas. Herman confirmed a number of times that Gottfried had the map but burned it. That map actually made its way to one of the Tovreas family members. I have no idea what became of that map.

Jim Hatt

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by Jim Hatt »

Image


Zen,

Clay Worst tells a funny story about "A" Holmes map. I'm not sure if it is the same one pictured above or not, but I suspect it is.

According to the story Brownie told Clay. Dick Holmes was out in the mountains somewhere, and ran into a small group of people that appeared to be lost. He stopped to talk to them, and see if they needed help of any kind. They told him that they were looking for a place to camp near water, and could not find water anywhere.

Dick explained that there were only a few places in the mountains where water could be found that time of year, and sat down and drew them a map that showed several major landmarks that could easily be seen and recognized from many parts of the mountains. Right in the center of the map he placed an "X" and told them that they were sure to find a nice place to camp and water there. (That "X" assumed to be Charlebois Spring)

Now the GOOD part.,,

Several years later, Dick was in a bar in town, and someone overheard him mention the LDM to someone else. They promptly approached him and said that they had a map to the LDM, that was positively drawn by the Dutchman himself, and they they would give him a good price if he was interested in purchasing it.

Dick replied that he might be interested, but he would have to have a quick look at it first. They pulled it out and allowed him to have a quick look at it and quickly put it away again.

You guessed it! It was the map Dick had drawn himself, to show that group of people where they could find water!

I suspect this is that map, or a recreation of it.

You need to get Clay to tell the story sometime. He tells it a lot better than I do, and it means a lot more coming from him than it does from me.

Jim

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cubfan64
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by cubfan64 »

Jim Hatt wrote:Image


Zen,

Clay Worst tells a funny story about "A" Holmes map. I'm not sure if it is the same one pictured above or not, but I suspect it is.

According to the story Brownie told Clay. Dick Holmes was out in the mountains somewhere, and ran into a small group of people that appeared to be lost. He stopped to talk to them, and see if they needed help of any kind. They told him that they were looking for a place to camp near water, and could not find water anywhere.

Dick explained that there were only a few places in the mountains where water could be found that time of year, and sat down and drew them a map that showed several major landmarks that could easily be seen and recognized from many parts of the mountains. Right in the center of the map he placed an "X" and told them that they were sure to find a nice place to camp and water there. (That "X" assumed to be Charlebois Spring)

Now the GOOD part.,,

Several years later, Dick was in a bar in town, and someone overheard him mention the LDM to someone else. They promptly approached him and said that they had a map to the LDM, that was positively drawn by the Dutchman himself, and they they would give him a good price if he was interested in purchasing it.

Dick replied that he might be interested, but he would have to have a quick look at it first. They pulled it out and allowed him to have a quick look at it and quickly put it away again.

You guessed it! It was the map Dick had drawn himself, to show that group of people where they could find water!

I suspect this is that map, or a recreation of it.

You need to get Clay to tell the story sometime. He tells it a lot better than I do, and it means a lot more coming from him than it does from me.

Jim
That story wouldn't surprise me in the least Jim - I suspect there may be a WHOLE BUNCH of those kinds of stories surrounding the legends in those mountains!

Incidently - I had asked a question on another thread here but didn't get any replies, so I'll give it another try here. As the story goes, Julia eventually began selling maps to the LDM after she gave up her own searching. Do you or anyone else know if there are any "guaranteed" copies of one of those maps floating around out there? I would think that if she was selling them during a given time period to try to make some money, at least a few of those maps would have survived until today perhaps in an old cedar chest or something like that.

I suppose it would be near impossible at this point to have one of those maps and be absolutely certain that it honesty came directly from Julia herself, but I was curious.

Thanks

Jim Hatt

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by Jim Hatt »

Hi Paul,

Sorry I didn't see your original question. I try to keep up with all the new posts, but sometimes they get buried behind newer ones before I get to them.

You know.... If ANYONE knew the answer to your question, it would probably have to be Tom K. or Clay W.

Now the "Hook". If anyone DOES have one of those copies. They are probably not willing to make it public, and we'll never know about it.

Funny how that stuff happens ain't it? ;)

Jim

Roger
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Julia Thomas Map to the LDM

Post by Roger »

Robert Blair wrote the book, "Tales of the Superstitions", in 1975 and he was one of the earlier researchers of the LDM to take a very disciplined approach to examining it and the existing evidence he could find at the time. I do think his conclusions were not correct - i.e., there was no LDM.

Blair does include in his book on Page 162 a map that he describes as "This map purports to be a true copy of a map that Julia Thomas either drew herself or obtained from Jacob Waltz just before his death, and is supposed to show the Superstition treasure country". Here is a link to that map at another LDM site:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... =0&pos=-91

I have no idea if the map is authentic or not.

Roger

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