GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Moderator: Jim_b

Post Reply
Zen
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:47 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by Zen »

Paul,

I don't know if you ever looked at some of my theories on a Q or source map, very similar to the way they research the books of the New Testament looking to find source material that the synoptic books came from. I applied the same principle to LDM maps and the profile was Randys baby during that search. I believe there are possibly variations of Julias map from Waltz, but I doubt the one that is touted as hers is very accurate.

Wilburn has a sketch/drawing I believe was from either Rhiney or Herman at the back of his book.

The other problem is that Waltz was trying to get them to his camp for the cache of ore there. Were his directions and/or map leading there instead?

Perhaps when and if Alberts things from his shack make there way to the historical society, we may get an answer.

Greg, Randy and I looked around his shack(It still stands) and I even looked under the loose floorboards and in the walls! I really thought of stashing a fake map just to watch Randy and Gregs faces, but I chickened out!

Jim Hatt

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by Jim Hatt »

LOL,

I can see it all now... been there, Done that!

Greg finds the map,
Wayne says...
"Whachya got there Greg?"
Greg says...
"Nuttin" and shows him his empty right hand.
Wayne says...
"No, in the other hand, the one you are holding behind your back"
Greg stuffs the map into his waist band and shows Wayne two empty hands.
Wayne says...
"I just saw a piece of paper in your left hand before you put it behind your back, Turn around"
Greg says...
"Oh Man, I just stepped on a nail" Drops to the floor and slides the map into a crack in the floor boards, and it falls to the ground below.
Wayne says...
"Greg, I know you found a map because I put it there myself as a joke".
Greg says...
"What map?

Nod, Nod, Nod... "Okayyyyyyyyyyy"

Now I'm not saying that Greg, or Randy, would do that, but you guys would be very surprised, if I named names of people that i have seen do such a thing!

I've been lied to, sabotaged, emulated online, had my computer and email hacked, and God only knows how many other things that I don't even know about. All by people that I once considered my friends.

And... People wonder why... although it is nice to have company around the campfire at night out in the mountains. I prefer to be a solo Dutch-Hunter!

Are we having fun yet? :lol:


User avatar
cubfan64
Posts: 689
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:00 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by cubfan64 »

Zen wrote:Paul,

I don't know if you ever looked at some of my theories on a Q or source map, very similar to the way they research the books of the New Testament looking to find source material that the synoptic books came from. I applied the same principle to LDM maps and the profile was Randys baby during that search. I believe there are possibly variations of Julias map from Waltz, but I doubt the one that is touted as hers is very accurate.

Wilburn has a sketch/drawing I believe was from either Rhiney or Herman at the back of his book.

The other problem is that Waltz was trying to get them to his camp for the cache of ore there. Were his directions and/or map leading there instead?

Perhaps when and if Alberts things from his shack make there way to the historical society, we may get an answer.

Greg, Randy and I looked around his shack(It still stands) and I even looked under the loose floorboards and in the walls! I really thought of stashing a fake map just to watch Randy and Gregs faces, but I chickened out!
Hi Wayne - yes, I do recall the discussions from another forum about the maps. I wish we still had access to that stuff - I have the posts, but the photos that went along with it are gone, so it's difficult to connect the dots now.

I've never seen Wilburn's book - that'll be on my list of things to look into.

I didn't really have any expectations regarding Julia's "original" maps that she sold copies of actually leading to anything since if they did, whatever had been there would be long gone by now. I was just mostly interested in it from a "historical" standpoint - just to see how her map jived with the Bark notes, Ely's book, etc...

I remember running across that map Roger showed from Blair's book - it may very well be a reproduction of one of those maps Julia sold during her life, but if so, I don't know how useful it could have ever been. The thing that immediately struck me on that map was seeing Weaver's Needle placed so close to the Salt River - the scale of that map alone would make it almost useless to ever try to follow.

Thanks for the information to everyone who responded though - much appreciated.

lighthouse
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:26 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by lighthouse »

WATERFALL.....
Several pages back in this forum was the mention of a waterfall. From first hand experience I know where a spectacular waterfall can be seen. As I have the tendency to go on and on, I'll be brief.....

Go into the Superstitions during the winter rainy season (January). Find youself an overhang to get out of the rain, in the vacinity of the north end of Bluff Spring Mountain. After a heavy downpour, go north and turn around to view the north rim of BSM. Heavy rain runoff into BSM Canyon will produce a very big waterfall. It doesn't last all that long, but if your timing is right, you'll see a very impressive sight!

Of course you have to be somewhat crazy to go there in January. It's cold and wet, and the rocks are slipperly. Those bone dry canyons you hike in the spring/autumn months are now filled with fast running water, making crossing some of them a very tricky and sometimes impossible task.

TIP: Wear hip waders! They not only help keep you warm, but you can negotiate knee to hip deep water, providing the water isn't flowing too swiftly to knock you over..... Lighthouse

Jim Hatt

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by Jim Hatt »

Mike,

Did you happen to notice if there was a cave behind that waterfall?

lighthouse
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:26 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by lighthouse »

Hello Jim:
No I didn't look for a cave behind the waterfall. My purpose by then was to hike back out via Needle/Boulder/La Barge to Canyon Lake. Too much rain and cold to suit me....

I've got a question concerning Barry Storm. In the Dec 1983 edition of Desert magazine there was an article by BARRY STORM!!!!! Now Barry DIED in 1971, but no where was the mention that this article was a reprint, concerning the exploits of Charles M. Clark!!!!!
Did Barry come back to life?............ Lighthouse

Jim Hatt

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by Jim Hatt »

lighthouse wrote:
Did Barry come back to life?............ Lighthouse


Now there is a question that I can answer, without resorting opinions or theories, and form a conclusion that I don't think anyone will want to dispute!

No, Barry Storm did not come back to life! :lol:

How and why, his article happened to appear in the magazine, so many years after his death, is as much of a mystery to me, as it is to you.

I have that article and will include the text of it below for those who do not... Anything particular in it that you wanted to discuss?

Jim



DESERT MAGAZINE DECEMBER 1983


Rising sheer above the Arizona desert like the ramparts of a long-forgotten world the weird Superstitions of Apache thunder gods and Spanish ghosts guard the secret of long-lost mines.


In the Superstition mountain region of central Arizona seasoned prospectors and dude goldhunters alike still search for the fabulous mines reputed to have been discovered and worked by the ill-fated Peralta party from Mexico 100 years ago. According to legend, the gold concentrates that had accumulated when Pedro Peralta and his miners were killed by Apaches, later were recovered by a nephew—and here is the story of their recovery.

By BARRY STORM

THE YOUTHFUL looking but ragged Mexican, who called himself Ramon Peralta Gonzales, had obviously endured an exhausting journey. He was gaunt and the roan horse, which had been his only transportation from California, was gaunt, and both of them were streaked with desert dust. But to Charles M. Clark, who was the telegrapher at Maricopa, neither man nor beast had suffered anything which could not be cured by rest and good food. So in this year of 1874, before the Southern Pacific had laid its tracks through the isolated Arizona villages and Ed Schieffelin had staked out his fabulous Tombstone claims, Clark offered the Mexican food for himself and the trade of two Indian ponies for the exhausted roan horse.

Gonzales accepted both with an obvious gratitude. And then after a few days rest he went to work around the village, making adobe bricks. Indeed, he must have intended to stay, for he informed his people in Sonora of his whereabouts by mail. But within a few weeks, he received a letter from his father, who was dying, asking him to come home immediately.

The second time Gonzales appeared at Maricopa many months later he had just come from Sonora, as he told Clark. And again he was even more fatigued than before, and the pony which he had ridden far and hard was beyond salvage. But this time, Gonzales confided, he had a map to gold, and he needed help to get it.

Maricopa was an isolated spot so Clark didn't mind making conversation when he had the chance. And conversation with anyone who thought he knew where gold could be obtained was of high interest at a time when the mysterious Dutchman was keeping the whole territory excited with reports of fabulous hidden treasure.

"You mean you want a grubstake then," Clark said. "But how am I to know that you really have directions to where gold can be found? You haven't been in these parts long, you know."

"That is true," the Mexican said. "In fact, I have just come from Sonora where my father died. And you remember the letter calling me home. My father's name was Manuel Peralta, and he said that many years ago in his youth, before there were Americanos here, he had worked placer gold in the Rio Salado near the mountains called the Superstitions. He said that there was more such gold in those mountains in a canyon called Fresco. He made me a map to this gold, and I have come to get it."

Clark's interest immediately was aroused. For it was only three years ago that Andy Starr had told how a dying man named Jacobs had stumbled out of those same mountains with a wild story about finding a Spanish bonanza with the help of a map obtained in Sonora. And perhaps this map came from the same source! "Let me see this map then,"

Clark exclaimed excitedly. "Maybe I'll grubstake you."
"But, no," said Gonzales hastily. "I do not wish anyone to see the map."

"Then I'll not help you," Clark said.

It was only with great reluctance, and when he saw that he could expect no help otherwise, that Gonzales finally produced the map. He kept it firmly clenched in his own two hands while he allowed Clark to take a brief look at it. Clark saw that it was an outline sketch of the Four Peaks on the north and of Weaver's Needle on the south and that between the two a line had been drawn to intersect the Rio Salado or Salt river at a point about midway between where the tributary canyon marked Fresco came into the river. Four crosses were marked around the tributary junction with Canon Fresco—and that magic word '' mina!" "Mine!" Clark translated excitedly. "Then where from this".

<photo not reproduced>
Abe L. Reid, pioneer Arizonan who found a piece of rich Spanish ore in 1930 on the northern slope of Peralta-mapped mountain but not, in two years of hunting, find the hidden mine from which it must have come.

On a line between the peaks which crosses the Salt river is the right canyon—this Canon Fresco?" "You'll help me with a horse and provisions and a rifle to save me from Apaches?" asked Gonzales narrowly. "I'll grubstake you, if you let me copy the map," Clark exclaimed. And so the trade was made, and after Clark had hastily copied the map, the son of Manuel Peralta rode off toward the Superstitions on Clark's horse, with Clark's rifle in the boot under his leg and with Clark's grub in his saddlebags.

Crossing the desert toward the northeast then, the Mexican rode on past the western end of the mountains, through the pass at Apache Gap and on to the Salt river beyond at Mormon Flat. And then he merely followed up the riverbank until he encountered the two old arrastres near the site where his father had said placer gold had been obtained. Near the site, too, of the mapped Canon Fresco!

But the arrastres were not all that he found.

There were human bones scattered about, still partially covered by the last disintegrating remnants of clothing. Nearby was the tumbled ruins of an old camp. Gonzales passed by the remains of the 26 year old massacre of the Peralta workers wonderingly, and went over to the camp.

And then with a gasp of amazement he saw behind the tumbled ruins of the breast-works, where Pedro's unlucky men on the river had made their last stand, the glitter of yellow gold shining through rotted hide sacks—concentrates from Pedro's mines back in the mountains!

This was indeed rare good fortune which Manuel Peralta had not foretold upon his deathbed. For with such a treasure Gonzales could live a full life in California. And no need now to seek farther up the Canon Fresco which his father had mapped, though that golden canyon was indeed right at hand, running southeast from the little valley later called Mormon Flat. It was in fact Tortilla canyon which trended east, and the mina location was about the junction of Peters canyon which came into it from the south, a scant four miles above.

And now all Gonzales had to do was fill up the sacks which he had brought along. So he returned to Maricopa days ahead of schedule.

Clark really became excited now when he saw with his own eyes this golden proof, so he thought, of the mapped way to fortune. For Gonzales showed him, and shared with him, a large baking powder can full of the yellow dust, which Clark did not know was lode concentrates panned from the arrastres and not true placer gold. And Gonzales, in the excitement, did not disclose the full truth of the fortune he had found but instead persuaded Clark to sell him the horse carrying the fortune for a paltry 300 dollars with which to travel on, he said, to relatives in California. Then he left Maricopa, riding west into the sunset, to vanish forever as far as Clark was concerned.

Clark tried to find the source of the gold which he had seen with his own eyes; then both he and his son searched, still unsuccessfully. They did considerable placering in LaBarge canyon with small success, entirely overlooking the fact that it is really a tributary of Tortilla creek, coming into the latter near its mouth.

To this day Tortilla creek is still unrecognized as the true Canon Fresco. Here, Russel Perkins of Tortilla Flat reported finding huge ash piles and other remains of an obviously large encampment, and Clark's son, Carl, stumbled upon a piece of hexagon drill steel sharpened Spanish-style in the form of a pointed, four edged spearhead instead of the chisel bit style used by American miners.

But though Clark never learned of it, Gonzales reappeared once more in the Superstitions 56 years later, seeking this time, from information obviously gained from relatives, the source of the golden concentrates which he had found upon the river. This time, too, in 1930, he came into the mountains from the southern side, trying apparently to set a course for Weaver's Needle from the desert below. But he was very old and the climbing was hard and in some way he missed his direction slightly so that he found himself in upper LaBarge canyon on the east side of Bluff Springs mountain instead of in Needle canyon on the west side. It was only the difference of a scant mile between but the sheer crags of the intervening mountain effectively blocked any view of La Sombrera from LaBarge canyon. And Roy Bradford was camping there!

Gonzales came to his camp, and casually asked Bradford to direct him to a high, black-topped hill which lay due north of another higher, hat-shaped peak which should be somewhere in the vicinity. He was Gonzales, he said, and he was seeking old mines which relatives from Mexico had once worked many years before.

Bradford was all excitement, for he himself had been searching for some years now for exactly those same mines. In fact, he recently had found at the junction of Bluff Springs and Needle canyons a huge saguaro into which stones had been embedded high up in such a way as to lead him to believe that they had been shot there by a nearby mine shaft blast. So Bradford was digging, he thought, even then upon the site of a hidden mine. And he too bluntly pressed the old Mexican for further details.

At this excited show of interest Gonzales fell into a wary silence from which he refused to be moved. Then Bradford, seeing that no more information was forthcoming and not wishing to disclose the site of his own digging to a total stranger, told the Mexican that the mountain he sought was yet many miles farther north. So Gonzales thanked him and again vanished into thin air, never to return. But with him vanished forever Bradford's one chance at fortune.

Yet, many years earlier, during the 1890's, John Carrol, a Mesa merchant, did cash in on his chance, and took his son with him on one trip to the ledge of bonanza gold ore to which he had fallen heir in payment of a delinquent bill.

The ore had originally been found by a soldier from Fort Mc-Dowell who spent most of his time off duty either drinking up his gold or prospecting for more. But he didn't dig it up as fast as he spent it and after a year he had run up quite a bill at Carrol's store. Then one day his regiment was transferred to Montana.

Carrol promptly asked for payment of his bill, and the soldier, to avoid having his pay attached, offered an alternative—"a sporting proposition." He knew, he said, where there was a ledge of rich ore in the Superstitions, even though he hadn't worked it as industriously as he should. If Carrol would call his bill even, he would tell him how to find it. And Carrol, himself, ought to have some idea about its value after cashing in the gold that the soldier had occasionally brought in.

Carrol did indeed have a very good idea of the value of that rock. He had already made plenty of profit from it, and secretly entertained the idea that a fortune was there if the ore lasted long enough. It was free milling gold in rotten hematite quartz which could be worked by hand at no cost. So he agreed to accept the phantom vein in full payment.

The soldier instructed him then to go to the parade ground at Fort McDowell, draw an imaginary line between the flagpole there and Weaver's Needle which could be seen in the distance, and then go up a canyon from Mormon Flat into the Superstitions where the line intersected. Probably there, he would still find the soldier's tracks, leading up canyon to the ore.

John Carrol took this good advice shortly afterwards and actually obtained enough gold to cause him to sell out his business and retire in ease. On his last trip to the ore, Carrol took his son along, and they rode horseback for over an hour from the river up what could only have been LaBarge canyon. Then they reached a well mineralized region of hills made reddish by oxidizing iron where many small arroyos drained down into the canyon. There they tied their horses and cooked lunch, leaving behind to mark the spot a frying pan, coffee pot and some cotton sugar sacks in which they had carried supplies.

From this point they went west up one of the arroyos a short distance to where a quartz ledge lay exposed upon a right bank. Here the elder Carrol obtained the small fortune which set him up for many years after. And then the ledge apparently vanished into thin air—was probably covered by erosion in the meantime. For twelve years later the younger Carrol returned alone, successfully refound the lunch camp, but never again the rich ledge he had once seen.

The thunder gods alone knew the secret!

<photo not reproduced>
Apache Lake and other man-made bodies of water in the desert now hide much of the Rio Salado down which the Peralta brothers trekked a near century ago to find rich placer deposits and fabulous, half-legendary bonanzas in the nearby Superstitions.

lighthouse
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:26 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by lighthouse »

Hello Jim:
I believe that for some reason Desert magazine wanted to run the artilce, but forgot to mention it was from their archives, sent in by Barry when he was still alive..... Lighthouse

roward
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:42 am
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by roward »

I was always fascinated by the mention of a waterfall in the two soldiers story. They hiked along a canyon with a creek running through it until they came to a waterfall that they couldn't get around. I always thought of it as a waterfall that was falling DOWN INTO the canyon, but someone on one of the forums mentioned coming to a waterfall in such a canyon that was dry, but dropped down from the canyon floor, in effect a large pouroff, I guess. The two soldiers story doesn't say which way it was. If they were going south from the vicinity of the Salt River or Apache trail, would a creek run south from the river, or north into the river? Also, does anyone know if the present route of the Apache trail is different than it was in the 1880's?
Bob

djui5
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:57 pm
anti-spam detector: No
The middle number please (4): 4

Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Post by djui5 »

roward wrote:I If they were going south from the vicinity of the Salt River or Apache trail, would a creek run south from the river, or north into the river?
Creeks that drain into the Salt River all run North into the river (from the Superstitions side). If a creek is running South it is because it drains off of a large mountain into a larger creek. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Also, does anyone know if the present route of the Apache trail is different than it was in the 1880's?
Bob
Yes :) Parts of the original trail can still be seen, and some parts are buried by the lakes and can be seen when they drain the lakes.

Post Reply