QUOTE - Robert Cooper

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QUOTE - Robert Cooper

Post by silent hunter » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:30 pm

Tom K,

I treat people the way they treat me!! Robert thought it important to stomp all over my name. He took it upon himself to call my company, and then claim that he got information on me. This company cannot release any info on its employees because of the sensitive nature of our mission. But he went ahead and took it upon himself to tell everyone I was a light bulb changer and toilet cleaner. I am in fact a department manager at the facility, I would have loved to offer my services to him. But his true person came out before i got that chance. Robert you should know who your degrading before you stick your foot in your mouth. Other than that.

SSAR is a tip top operation. We are lucky to have them.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter

Jim Hatt

QUOTE - Robert Cooper

Post by Jim Hatt » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:49 pm

My apologies to everyone for starting this in the Jesse Capen thread. I had no idea it was going to generate so many replies when I dropped Robert Cooper's quote into the discussion. As a result of so many responses, I have moved it to its own topic.


Tom,

It does not matter to me if Robert ever responds to confirm or deny his statement or not, I have made no such request. The opportunity is here if he wants to take advantage of it, but I would not expect, or feel comfortable with anyone else from SSAR replying for him. Nobody in that organization is accountable for his personal opinions.

It is you my friend, who brought the SSAR and Pinal County Sheriff into the discussion. (I never mentioned either of them until I started replying to your posts)

The sooner you quit attempting to defend (in my opinion) an un-defendable statement, the sooner this topic will dry up, and sink to the bottom the page.

Robert made his public insult of me, and all other Dutch-Hunters and Prospectors, now publicized on an international scale.

I see nothing wrong with any of us voicing our objection to it via any public media available to us.

Best,

Jim

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Re: Superstition Search and rescue - SSAR

Post by LDMGOLD » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:09 pm

Jim:

I don't believe for a minute Cooper met that as a public insult to you personally. He was making reference to the real crack-pots out there. I have personally been misquoted by New Times myself. For this reason I avoid in personal interviews anymore. I was offered an interview from a helicopter over the Superstition this week and turned it down. I had turned down a similar request twenty years ago. I don't even want to put myself into their shoes (search & rescue). These search & rescue people are highly trained at what they are doing. I been around searches off and on for the past fifty years and I have not found any better trained search and rescue personal then the men and women of the SSAR including Robert Cooper. As far as I know MCSO is fully cooperating with SSAR as this search continues.

I would hope this issue has ended. There are a lot more important things to discuss on this site.

Take care,

Tom Kollenborn

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Re: QUOTE - Robert Cooper

Post by cubfan64 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:39 pm

I can't speak for anything that happened with Kurt or anything other than the quotation, but to be honest, I'm not that offended by it.

When you look back through the history of the Superstitions and specifically prospecting and "dutch hunting," it's difficult to argue that it doesn't have it's "wild side" to it. The feuds between the Piper and Jones' crews alone is enough to make at least part of his statement correct. Are dutch hunters and prospectors out there secretive? That's another part of the statement that's true. Now add in some of the really nutty folks we've run across like Blindbowman and others, and you have a whole 'nuther dimension to people who could be out there looking around.

I didn't take Mr. Cooper's statement as an "across the board" condemnation of everyone who goes out there looking for gold, but maybe that's what he meant. If he indeed was implying that anyone and everyone who goes out there looking for gold, mines, etc... is a dangerous looney toon, then so be it - it's his opinion - I couldn't care less. I have alot more important battles to fight than what anyone thinks of me.

It sounded to me like a quote from someone frustrated that the last 4 people who've gone missing out there had ties to "looking for the dutchman" and nobody's seen a trace of any of them since they disappeared. He may have been misquoted, or he may have said it in frustration, etc... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since ultimately it makes no difference to me what someone does or doesn't think about my "hobby."

Anything else that may be going on behind the scenes that I'm not aware of isn't something I can comment on.

Anyways - just my $0.02.

Jim Hatt

Re: QUOTE - Robert Cooper

Post by Jim Hatt » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:46 pm

Tom,

This is not about your own personal experiences with the news services, The SSAR, the MCSO or the Pinal County Sheriff.

This is about Mr. Robert Cooper's opinion of Dutch-Hunters and Prospectors, and now, it is also getting into his attitude towards anyone, that might discover anything important before he does. I have met Robert and tried to work with him on several occasions. As I said earlier I found him to be a "difficult" person to work with. That could be partially my fault, because I can be a difficult person to work with myself at times.

(tho I am sure nobody has noticed that :mrgreen: )

I spent a lot of time with Robert (including several trips to the Capen search area with him) telling him everything I knew about the area Jesse went missing in, and told him about areas where I had already searched. After his crew had cleared several search areas, I requested that he post (or provide me with a copy of) a map of the areas that had been cleared, by SSAR so the rest of us independent searchers, would not waste or time, in areas that had already been cleared.

I forget what his excuse was for not doing it at the time, but he did say that he would later. That was about 6 months ago, and I still have not heard squat from him, and he has never shared anything, in the way of an update with the independent searchers.

I don't know what the goal of Robert Cooper is, but my own goal, and that of all the other independent searchers I know, was was always to find Jesse Capen, and to share any information we had, with anyone else out there searching in pursuit of that same goal.

I have also found that both the MCSO and PCSO, are both happy to share anything they have in the way of information with us, in pursuit of that goal, as long as it does not infringe on any "Foul Play" investigations they may have in progress.

If you want to continue making excuses for Robert's actions and comments. be my guest. We have lots of space here, and we know where to get more if we start running low.

I'm just not buying any of it myself.

Best,

Jim

Jim Hatt

Re: QUOTE - Robert Cooper

Post by Jim Hatt » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:00 pm

Paul,

I hear where you are coming from buddy!

I read Robert's quote over and over trying to find a way to take some of the "sting" out of it, and I kept coming right back to the same thing.


Let's take another look at it:

”These Gold Rush guys — some Dutchman hunters, others regular prospectors — are wild cards. Not only are they secretive, but they've got a long and sordid history in the Superstitions; they're known to be dangerous." ~Robert Cooper~

"These Gold Rush guys — " That's all of us out there looking for gold in any form, with fire and blood in our eyes. (maybe you find something in there that excludes you hobbyists?)

Then he breaks us down into to categories - "some Dutchman hunters, others regular prospectors"

Then he describes what they are all like:

"Not only are they secretive, but they've got a long and sordid
history in the Superstitions; they're known to be dangerous
."

If you can separate yourself from that statement, I am happy for you.
But I can't.

Now, I will admit that Tom did a fine job of explaining that in his opinion, not all Dutch-Hunters and Prospectors fall into that category, and I appreciate that. But that does not change a single word of Robert's quote that remains in newspapers from coast to coast, and probably around the globe by now.

Best,

Jim

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Re: QUOTE - Robert Cooper

Post by LDMGOLD » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:48 pm

Jim:

I went back and read Cooper statement. The statement he made that was in quotes and a little different then what you printed out. The writer was also editorializing on Cooper's remarks. Jim you know as I do there are plenty of crackpots out hunting for gold in the Superstition Mountain. Think about all those guys you dealt with on Feldman's site and you really believe all Dutch Hunters and Stone Map people are totally normal. We all better hope their are people like Cooper and the SSAR out there if we are ever in need of help. After all it could happen to anyone of us.

Take care Jim,

Tom K.

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Re: QUOTE - Robert Cooper

Post by cubfan64 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:08 pm

Jim Hatt wrote:Paul,

I hear where you are coming from buddy!

I read Robert's quote over and over trying to find a way to take some of the "sting" out of it, and I kept coming right back to the same thing.


Let's take another look at it:

”These Gold Rush guys — some Dutchman hunters, others regular prospectors — are wild cards. Not only are they secretive, but they've got a long and sordid history in the Superstitions; they're known to be dangerous." ~Robert Cooper~

"These Gold Rush guys — " That's all of us out there looking for gold in any form, with fire and blood in our eyes. (maybe you find something in there that excludes you hobbyists?)

Then he breaks us down into to categories - "some Dutchman hunters, others regular prospectors"

Then he describes what they are all like:

"Not only are they secretive, but they've got a long and sordid
history in the Superstitions; they're known to be dangerous
."

If you can separate yourself from that statement, I am happy for you.
But I can't.

Now, I will admit that Tom did a fine job of explaining that in his opinion, not all Dutch-Hunters and Prospectors fall into that category, and I appreciate that. But that does not change a single word of Robert's quote that remains in newspapers from coast to coast, and probably around the globe by now.

Best,

Jim
I understand your point too Jim - as I mentioned, if it turned out he really IS implying that ALL folks out there searching and looking for gold/dutchman related things are crackpots, I would disagree with him wholeheartedly.

A couple things I want to clarify about myself and my comments earlier as well...

There is a reason I use the word "hobbyist" to describe myself in terms of being a "dutch hunter." It's primarily because I don't believe I could ever consider myself really anything more than a hobbyist unless I lived close enough that I could head out exploring any time I wanted. That's just my own personal definition for myself only - I'm not out to judge anyone else based on that definition. The other major reason I use that term about myself is out of respect for those people who have devoted large portions of their lives to researching and exploring the legends and mountains for gold and the LDM. It would be arrogant and disrespectful imho to consider myself a "dutch hunter" in that regard.

One day I hope to change my title from "hobbyist" to "dutch hunter," but until that day comes, I'll continue to refer to myself as the former.

Lastly, I certainly can see and understand how people who HAVE devoted alot of their lives to searching out there might be more offended by a statement like that - I'd like to get 10-20 years under my belt and then hear it again, I might feel differently myself :)

Anyways, I'm gonna let this be my last comment on this thread anyways as it's probably not going to go anywhere terribly productive.

Jim Hatt

Re: QUOTE - Robert Cooper

Post by Jim Hatt » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:26 pm

Tom,

I did not print anything out.

I cut and pasted the statement from the article in the link I initially provided.
Jim Hatt wrote: Think about all those guys you dealt with on Feldman's site and you really believe all Dutch Hunters and Stone Map people are totally normal.
I never dealt with anybody on Feldman's site. What you had there was a bunch of fake "Persona's" dealing with each other, and most people realize it.

Did I ever say anything about anybody being totally normal?

I have only maintained that NOT ALL Dutch-Hunters and Prospectors, have a long and sordid history in the Superstitions, or are known to be dangerous. I could tell you about some real Crazy folks I have run into out there myself, but that is not the subject of this discussion.

If Robert did not make that statement, all he has to do is say so, and I will contact the reporter that wrote it, and find out where those words came from.

Take a look at the statement just before the one I have been quoting:

"We've seen [prospectors] dropped off and the vehicles leaving. They walk right past us. They don't want us to see their face. They don't want to talk to us," Cooper says. "We've found shovels, picks, pry-bars, axes, pans.... There's a lot of mine shafts in that area. You've got these Gold Rush guys digging all sorts of holes."

Now I have been hiking back in that area for somewhere around 15 years, and I have never seen anybody back there doing anything. I have never seen anybody back there at all that didn't go in with me. Those old mines and "holes" in that area, date back to the time when Michael Bilbrey had his legal mining claims back there prior to 1984, and some are a lot older than that.

I have seen shovels and picks back there (and so has Kurt) but the wooden handles are all rotted away from them, or very close to it. They are certainly not in good enough condition to do any digging with.

Robert makes it sound like the Crazy Gold rush guys (the ones who are known to be so dangerous) are back there digging every day, when in fact there probably hasn't been anyone digging back there since Bilbrey left the area.

He just likes slipping the words "Gold Rush guys" into his story any time he can, and making them all sound like dummies digging holes, and breaking the law all over the place.

Next time you talk to him, ask him why he never shared any of the information about the areas he had cleared, with any of the independent searchers out there working just as hard as his people were to find Jesse? A lot of whom were in the area searching way before he was, and kept going back long after he had given up on the search.

I don't really lose any sleep over his opinion of Dutch-Hunters and Prospectors, but I have laid awake thinking about that a time or two.

Best,

Jim

Jim Hatt

Re: QUOTE - Robert Cooper

Post by Jim Hatt » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:33 pm

cubfan64 wrote:
Anyways, I'm gonna let this be my last comment on this thread anyways as it's probably not going to go anywhere terribly productive.

I think you are probably right Paul. I will leave the topic open long enough for Tom to make a final reply, and then close it and let it sink out of sight, before a lot of people who feel the same way I do about all of this begin to put their $2 worth in. :lol:

Best,

Jim

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