Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

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sardude
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Re: Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

Post by sardude »

Ed, Below is a link describing some ongoing issues with the available airspace in the east valley. This may help answer your question.


http://www.azcentral.com/community/pina ... ebate.html

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roc2rol
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Re: Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

Post by roc2rol »

Thanks Again sardude!

That article does answer many questions for me...
serious pictures of the recovery efforts, also
Ed

i-tsari-tsu-i

Re: Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i »

sardude,

Thank you for the link.

One thing that was not mentioned in the article, is the strong mountain downdrafts, as well as updrafts throughout the Superstition range. The Flatiron has always been known to be especially severe in that respect.

I know that my uncle, Chuck Ribaudo, and Ernie Provence almost crashed there many years ago. They were in a plane with a fairly powerful engine, which is the only thing that saved them. Possibly they were caught in a Katabatic wind flow, which the Supe's are subject to. Members who are pilots would know if that's a possibility.

My condolences to the family and friends of the people who perished in the terrible accident.

Joe

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Re: Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

Post by somehiker »

Here is the relevant portion of my (now out of date) Phoenix VFR Sectional Chart.The blue routes indicate the VFR corridors for aircraft transitioning the PHX control zone.I've added in red,the likely flight path of the accident aircraft,but the NTSB report may show different.Without a clearance for a higher altitude than 4,500-5,500' ASL,the pilot should have joined the blue corridor with a turn to the SE,thus avoiding the higher elevations of the range.

Image

As to what went wrong,it will be published in the final report from the NTSB.
Both pilots were experienced mountain pilots,although only one was in the cockpit at the time of the crash, and their company was involved in firefighting surveillance....see the photo section...
http://ponderosaaviation.net.

Regards:SH.

May the victims and families find peace.

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roc2rol
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Re: Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

Post by roc2rol »

That’s a serious map
Thanks for posting it
What does the Outlaw MOA stand for ?


Another problem I see
is that Williams Gateway is south
I'm sure there restricted airspace there...

Ed

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Re: Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

Post by somehiker »

Roc:
Air traffic under visual flight rules is basically pilot controlled while outside of areas controlled by ATC facilities.However,the rule book containing the laws governing VFR is very thick.The blue routes on the map are only the suggested flyways which make it easier for aircraft to avoid conflicts and minimize both the workload for controllers/pilots and noise for the folks living below. while transitioning the area.Aircraft entering or within a controlled area,like that delineated by the dashed circle around Williams,must first make contact with the ATC responsible for that facility.As long as no conflict with other traffic is anticipated,the Willams controller will allow a vfr aircraft to pass through his airspace(at or below the altitude..3,900'..shown on the chart. MOA means Military Operations Area and is usually only restricted when military activities are scheduled.

Regards:SH.

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Re: Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

Post by silent hunter »

I like the little Md 500 notar on the map.....

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Re: Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

Post by somehiker »

silent hunter wrote:I like the little Md 500 notar on the map.....
The helipad out back of the MD plant is also shown.The little flag indicates that it is also a reporting point for VFR aircraft approaching other airports in the vicinity.The underlined word "BOEING" on this older chart is what an inbound pilot would announce as a checkpoint to the tower or approach controller.

Regards:Wayne

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Re: Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

Post by roc2rol »

Hi Guys

Despite vehement objections from the Arizona Pilots Association, the FAA lowered the airspace reserved for commercial flights to about 5,000 feet, about the same elevation as the tallest peaks, in an effort to prevent small planes from colliding with jetliners flying in the area.

That move left general aviation pilots with two choices: either ask an air traffic controller for permission to enter the Bravo space, or turn to the south to avoid the mountains.


Wayne maybe you could answer this question:

Does the above mean
if a private airplane want to enter the the Bravo airspace
it can't fly higher than 5,000 feet?

Thanks
Ed

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Re: Plane Crash at Lost Dutchman Mine Park 11/23

Post by sardude »

Thank you all for the info. I am a groundpounder who has been hiking in the Supes for 45 yrs. Looking at the map is interesting as I have been on the Flatiron and watched a B-25 fly by at eye level to the South. The pilot and I were eye to eye. Wished I had my camera out on that one. I am very able to read all kinds of maps but have never seen one like that. I guess it is never to late to learn. Lots of traffic up Siphon and I hope that as I posted before that people are respecting the site.
Larry PCSO Posse SR 65

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