Black Bart's Gold

[roc2rol]

I pass by this display of Black Bart everyday.


I was wondering why one on the gold ingots was in a cone shape?
It’s not a great pic but is located to the far right by Black Bart bullet riddled hat.

It’s a fairly historic display and I’m sure that it is the original hat.
But most likely the gold is colored lead -- authentically displayed.

I’ve never heard of any lost treasure legends of Black Bart’s robbery
But I would imagine that he hid lots of his loot.

He listed his occupation as miner
apparently tho…
the only gold he ever mined was from Wells Fargo Ha Ha!!

Thanks for looking
Ed

[oroblanco]

Hola amigo!

Black Bart is quite a famous outlaw, there are several good articles on him online, such as

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/Picture ... kBart.html

<extract from linked article above>
Charles E. Bolton, aka: Black Bart, Charles E. Boles, T.Z. Spalding (1830-1917?) - Born in Jefferson County, New York in 1830, Bolton made his way to California in about 1850. Sometime later he decided to make his living as one of most unusual stagecoach robbers in American history. His first recorded robbery was in August, 1877 when he waylaid a Wells Fargo coach outside Fort Ross, taking a strongbox that contained $300. Over the next years, he would rob another 30 stagecoaches, never wounding anyone during the crimes, and often leaving notes of poetry behind in the strongboxes he looted.



So here I've stood while wind and rain

Have set the trees a'sobbin'

And risked my life for that damned stage

That wasn't worth the robbin'


<Charles Bolles, aka "Black Bart" from Wiki article>

A Wells Fargo detective found the poem (above) to have been the work of a copycat robber, due to handwriting analysis. The Wiki article lists many of his crimes, and mentions one in which an amount of gold (amalgam) was hidden in a rotten log, which has never been found. Before I forget, here is the link for the Wiki article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bolles

Quite a character Black Bart was, unusual even for his own time. It is likely there are several stashes of loot hidden by Black Bart which have never been found.

More on Black Bart;
http://www.thewildwest.org/cowboys/wild ... -blackbart
http://www.blackbart.com/
http://oldcorner.com/black_bart/black_bart.htm
Oroblanco

[roc2rol]

Hey RoY !
ol’ Black Bart was certainly a character!
It was one of the first cases of DNA profiling
His blood was left on an article of clothing.
he ditched from being shot thru the hat.
There was laundry tag # on that clothing
that they traced back to a
San Francisco dry cleaning company.
Hence they got his name

Always a sharp dressed & real polite man!

Do you know if there any significance to the cone shape gold ingot?

Thnxs
ed

[oroblanco]

Hola amigo!

I would not attach too much importance on the shape of any ingots, a cone shape is a fairly common type for small operations - for a mould they simply hollowed out a cone, or finger-shape or "dish" and then poured in the molten gold. The oldest known gold ingots were cone-shaped, called in the bible the "wedge of ophir".

What you can infer from that one being shaped like a cone, is that ingot would not have been the output of a large mining company with regular ingot moulds.
Roy

[roc2rol]

Hola amigo!

The oldest known gold ingots were cone-shaped, called in the bible the "wedge of ophir".

Roy

That’s really interesting Roy!
I been thinking about ophir
even thought of starting a thread about it

I’m not all that well studied on it
so not sure what I would have to say
besides have they ever located the ophir mine?
edmostly

[oroblanco]

Hola amigo,

Roc2rol wrote

Hola amigo!

The oldest known gold ingots were cone-shaped, called in the bible the "wedge of ophir".

Roy

That’s really interesting Roy!
I been thinking about ophir
even thought of starting a thread about it

I’m not all that well studied on it
so not sure what I would have to say
besides have they ever located the ophir mine?
edmostly

Well, the Spanish in the 1600's were convinced that Peru is Ophir, and as I understand it the names are 'etymologically' the same. There sure are some strange looking ancient Peruvians like the Moche, who look more like Hebrews than any kind of Indians,


<from Wikipedia, not the most pronounced example but you can see what we are talking about.>

...and an American explorer named Gene Savoy found ancient ruins and a matching "glyph", pretty interesting (for me, been working on a book on ancient explorers for eight years now) but as far as I know, the historians still insist that Ophir has not been found or they point to India or Africa as the location. Either of those is definitely not Ophir, for it took three years for a trip - and they could sail or walk to India or Africa in less time than that. Savoy has an interesting article online at
http://www.aefosc.org/grandophir/ophir.html

I don't know how we could tie this in to the southwest though - although there are some supposed discoveries of ancient mines, settlements etc so it is possible that Ophir really meant the Americas and not just Peru. The most promising site for evidence of ancient Hebrew (or Phoenician) visitors in the southwest is in New Mexico, the famous "Los Lunas Decalogue" which has an inscription that appears to quite ancient and is either Hebrew or Phoenician, if Hebrew it can be read as a copy of the Ten Commandments. (In Phoenician it tells a different story, but still fascinating). There is an article online on it too, with decent photos of the inscribed stone at:
http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html

You never know what you will find, and I am NOT kidding! There is another ancient Phoenician inscription in Nevada, near Pyramid lake which has sailing directions on it, and of course you probably heard of the story of the "Egyptian" mummies and artifacts found in caves in the Grand Canyon, or the underground city of Death Valley too. <There are online articles on these too but not sure how they might tie in with Ophir?>

Sheesh now you have given me an idea, will have to check it out. I have no idea how to tie this post back in with Black Bart, apologies!
Roy

[oroblanco]

PS here is a better Moche example,
http://z.about.com/d/archaeology/1/0/S/ ... Vessel.jpg

[roc2rol]

Yo Roy and all!

Interesting conjectures!!
Is it possible that the Ophir Gold Mine could be located in Peru?
Were one of the lost tribes of Israel in the New World?
Hmmm….

For some reason I do believe that the Phoenician had the capability to sail to the New World. Whether they did or not and where the Ophir mine is located will remain debated for ages, I suppose. Saudi Arabia as a pretty good claim that the mine was there.

I remain skeptical of the stone artifacts purporting to be of Hebrew stone writngs/carvings. I don’t know. Something about no graven images and I just don’t think that Moche head is spitting image of Moses. But I was just little kid when that was going on Ha HA !! But I sure like to locate that Golden Calf! O... it was destroyed along with the original stone Ten Commandments.
Everything gets broken!

Here is some other Hebrew stone writings you might not recall.
From the Newark mounds...

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/decalog.html
Ed

[oroblanco]

VERY off-topic reply, so I beg your indulgence.

Roc2rol wrote

Yo Roy and all!

Interesting conjectures!!
Is it possible that the Ophir Gold Mine could be located in Peru?
Were one of the lost tribes of Israel in the New World?
Hmmm….

For some reason I do believe that the Phoenician had the capability to sail to the New World. Whether they did or not and where the Ophir mine is located will remain debated for ages, I suppose. Saudi Arabia as a pretty good claim that the mine was there.

I remain skeptical of the stone artifacts purporting to be of Hebrew stone writngs/carvings. I don’t know. Something about no graven images and I just don’t think that Moche head is spitting image of Moses.

Saudi Arabia as a location for Ophir doesn't work well, one look at the map will show you why - it is fairly close. The voyage to Ophir and Tarshish took three years. Coincidentally, Magellan's voyage around the world took almost exactly three years, and Drake's circumnavigation of the globe also took three years. Sailing ships speed have not changed radically for many centuries. The average distance for an ancient sailing ship was (average) 90 to 120 miles per day. To sail to the farthest end of Arabia from Ezion-geber (the port where Solomon's ships set sail) would take at most a few weeks time. With favorable winds, ancient sailing ships could make 8 to 10 knots per hour, over a 24 hour day that is a considerable distance. The folks who say "they could not have done it" need only check out the ancient spice trade, Phoenicians were bringing cloves from the Moluccas to the Mediterranean - check that out on your globe for some idea of the distances. Also note that Solomon had the direct assistance of Phoenician ship builders and navigators in his fleet, thanks to his friendship and alliance with king Hiram of Tyre, then the most powerful Phoenician city-state.

Solomon did have copper mines in what is today Saudi Arabia, some were recently discovered. The overland caravan route led from them to Ezion-geber where a large copper smelting/refinery center was built.

As for the "no graven images" rule, remember this is from King Solomon's time (and his father David) and the Hebrews were definitely not obeying that rule. Solomon had carved columns for the Temple, as well as a bronze "sea" with the figures of oxen as legs, the two angels on top of the Ark of the Covenant etc - the proscription about no graven images meant that you were not to worship such things, as most ancient people did.

I did not say that a Moche effigy is a representation of Moses, only that it resembles ancient Hebrews. The headdresses worn by many ancient Moche is very similar to those of ancient Hebrews and other Semitic peoples.

I can't think of a way to tie this in with Black Bart's gold.
Roy

[roc2rol]

Happy Fools Gold Day All!

& Yo Ray

The wedge of Ophir is right there in the Black Bart display. It all fits!

As mentioned before I do believe the Phoenician could have made the trip to the New World --but did they?

In the 10th BC of King Solomon time I don’t think it could have occurred. Not any planned excursion that far. Their ships were probably not that openly seaworthy and I would imagine that they stayed within site of the coastline in those early ages. They were traders and probably had a pretty good gig just staying cautious. As the centuries progressed? Sure they would have spread their sails for yonder shores. But time may not have been on their side for longer excursions. The high point for their culture and sea powers were from 1200 to 800 B.C. Who took over from them? Greeks?

If they had been visiting the New World with any frequency I think Alexander the Great would have capitalized on that. He wasn’t one to miss a exploration party!

Yet there are some interesting conjectures! A Spanish writer Oviedo in his book, “General & Natural History of the Indies” published in 1535 speculated that indigenous American could have been lost merchants from Carthage. Well Carthage was established by the Phoenicians. But Oviedo speculation may have been motivated by more than just scientific objectivity.

I too find the subject of pre-Columbus explorers to the Americas fascinating. But we need some insurmountable hard facts. Wouldn’t it turn the world upside down if a Phoenician shipwreck was found off a South American coast! Not that the world needs much more shaking up! But something like that would be comparable to a Copernican revolution!

Ed