Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

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Injunbro
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Re: Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

Post by Injunbro » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:17 pm

I've read Tom Horn's autobiography & have a copy in my collection. G Grandpas letter wasn't included by John Coble when he published Horns book. Horn was a talented man but an awful braggart - it's pretty obvious why he was hung in Cheyenne... he just couldn't shut up! His Apache name was 'Talking Boy', for the same reason. I don't know how interested you are in Horn but there is a little I know that hasn't been published to my knowledge. He lived w/ the White Mountain Apaches for a while & had a child w/ a widowed Apache woman (a girl I believe). They were last seen in Mexico & he never managed to catch up w/ them. I met a woodcutter north of Prescott many years ago who claimed to be descended from them and he looked quite a bit like Horn but darker skinned. He was a very strange and reclusive sort, seldom went to town and was totally paranoid. My wife had an uncle who married into the Miller family & they told a lot about Horn that isn't public knowledge. I'm getting off topic - I suppose Tom Horn is another subject all together.
There is lot of written 'history' out there that is just plain wrong. Then as now most people keep very few records that accurately document anything & the quality of newspaper reporting is as bad as ever.Feel free to ask any questions, I'll either answer them to the best of my knowldge, admit I don't know or simply tell you 'no' if I think it's personal.

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Re: Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

Post by treasurehntr » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:23 pm

Injunbro,
I want to thank you for the information you have provided.Very interesting reading. Would it be possible for you to elaborate more on the Apache rituals that are celebrated in the Superstitions ? Thank you, Treasurehntr ........

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Re: Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

Post by Injunbro » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:25 pm

I'm not a traditionalist but I can a elaborate a little on the rituals (actually I'm a Christian) but respect their right to practice their religon. The traditional Apaches believe they came to the modern world through an opening in the Earth. This opening is a cave located in Needle Canyon - the entrance is covered, hidden & guarded. The guards often appear to be hikers or campers. 100+ years ago gold nuggets were stored there w/ the belief gold was Mother Earths blood. This is no longer true since it's too much temptation for some people & nothing is stored there today. Out of respect I won't go into details about the actual rituals but the dancing & singing, is similar to the Old Testament Bible & is really a form of prayer to God. Judeo-Christians call Him Jehovah; Apaches call Him Yusen. Helen Corbin came the closest any White person ever has to understanding Apache ways in her book.

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cubfan64
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Re: Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

Post by cubfan64 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:58 pm

We're getting sort of off the topic of this thread here - the discussion is interesting as it relates to Native American presence in the Superstition Mountains, so if there is continued interest I think I can start a new thread if you would like.

One other thing - while the discussion is definitely interesting (to me at least and I'm sure a few others), keep in mind that statements presented as fact and not theory (ie. 100+ years ago gold nuggets were stored there...the entrance is covered and guarded... etc...) are open to question unless evidence can be presented to prove them to be accurate.

No offense meant at all injunbro, but most of us visit other forums where folks often come along making all sorts of claims which they can't or won't provide proof for. Usually those threads deteriorate very quickly since a two way discussion can't be maintained when it's just a story one person wants others to believe.

Let me know if you would like me to start a thread related to Native American presence and past history in the Superstitions as it relates to gold deposits or other treasures.

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Re: Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

Post by treasurehntr » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:06 pm

Injunbro,
Thanks for the information on the Apache rituals. I would like to discuss other topics with you off record if that is ok with you. Can you please send me a PM to: treasurehntr@msn.com
Attention: Apache Information.
Some of the answers may fall into the "hear say" category and not able to be backed up by fact. I don't want to waste anyone's time here or get anyone into trouble. Just want to follow the rules. Thank you, Mike .......

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cubfan64
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Re: Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

Post by cubfan64 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:28 pm

One of the problems with internet forums is that clear communication is so much harder than in person. While I don't appreciate the implication that I'm "clueless," I also believe my comments may not have come across in the manner they were intended.

I don't think anyone here has problems with reading things that are based on "hearsay" or legends, etc... as long as they are presented as such. There is very very little that can be "proven" as it relates to various stories of treasure in the Superstitions. I wasn't intending to imply that every statement made must be backed by proof of such, and I apologize if my intent did not come through clearly.

The whole story of Native American history within the Superstitions is so thin on facts, I would never expect anyone to have facts to back everything up. Personally, I find everything I hear related to that history fascinating - at times, even more interesting and thought provoking than any LDM or Jesuit treasure stories. I'll see if I can start a thread somewhere, and if I'm able, I'll post a link to it here.

If you folks or anyone else wants to have conversations offline, that's fine - I know for myself I would love to hear whatever stories you have to tell as to what life was REALLY like in the Superstitions and surrounding mountains/desert for the Native Americans.

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cubfan64
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Re: Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

Post by cubfan64 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:36 pm

I started a new thread here...

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2630

Please feel free to continue adding to this new thread and I look forward to hearing the stories.

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Re: Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

Post by Injunbro » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:41 pm

Treasurehunter, I tried sending you a PM but couldn't get the link to work. Possibly the problem is my ailing laptop.
Cubfan64, I'm not sure what you're referring to w/ the "clueless" statement but if I'm the one who offended it wasn't my intent. I tend to be a little blunt but mean to offend no one. I do get disgusted w/ the armchair researchers who expect everything to be provable. I will share anything I know to the best of my knowledge (or simply refuse if it's too personal) but everything will have to be accepted as just my opinion.

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Re: Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

Post by i-tsari-tsu-i » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:36 am

Mike,

It's true that Serra did not find great wealth in the Jesuit Missions. There is this from "The Last of the Conquistadors":

[It soon became apparent to the missionaries that, far from what they had been led to believe, they had not entered upon the Promised Land. They found the missions in a deplorable condition. Although they had been in existence since 1697, the date of the occupation of the peninsula, all of them together numbered only 7,149 Christians, including women and children, and many of those were still running around nude. Some of the stations, established in barren localities, had always been poor. The others had been looted since the Jesuits, driven out by Portola in December, had left them.

In fact Portola had, upon his arrival and while awaiting the coming of the delayed Franciscans, charged certain of the soldiers with guardianship of those missions, as the Indians would have completely plundered them otherwise. These soldier guardians took over the looting in their turn. Not to mention the cellars and granaries they emptied, they became voracious meateaters, and set themselves up as butchers on a wholesale scale. One of them slaughtered 600 head of livestock, another 400, a third 300. "Six months more of such 'administration,'" wrote Palou, "and there would have been nothing left at all."]

It would seem that there was a great deal of the Jesuit "treasure" looted.

This from "Antigua California" by Harry Crosby:

"Just as Gálvezvez had deceived himself about sequestered Jesuit riches, he failed to perceive the truth about the peninsula's lack of resources."

Neither author was a Jesuit.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions

Post by gollum » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:19 pm

Joe,

People keep trotting out these same old tunes, but what the locals looted were livestock and basic mission staples that had been left behind (plates, cups, tools, etc). If any gold or silver would have been found at the time of the arrests, it would have been removed and reported by the soldiers and representatives of the King. No such finds were reported.

While we have many reports of wealth between 1608 and 1767, we have nothing reported being found at the time of the arrests. That tells me that whatever WAS there was gone by the time the Jesuits were arrested.

Now, my biggest question is that since the Order was restored in 1814, why haven't they recovered their wealth? There is no question whether or not the Jesuits had wealth. The two oft presented articles below bear witness to that fact:

Mike
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