The Peralta-Fish Map

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Choto
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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Thu May 25, 2017 6:58 am

coazon de oro wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 7:48 pm
Howdy Choto,

What you have posted are Tonto N P rules, and regulations. In Arizona, the mining law of 1872 is what governs mining. It stands above all the rest, and all of the Peralta mines pre-existed the Wilderness Act.

Why even worry about Treasure Trove permits? There is no "Peralta Treasure Room, or Box", it is all just one man's imagination gone wild. The Peraltas came and mined in the winter of 1853-54. Why would they do so much work if they had a "treasure room, or box"? Because there was no such treasure, just the mines. The Fish Map is very real, unlike the so called ground map, or blueprints to some stone maps. Why does the Sombrero have those lines on it? Just to show that it is a mountain, other wise the outline it's self would just look like a trail, or creek. If the Fish map shows a mine at the east side of Weaver's Needle, you better believe there is a mine there.

Homar
Homar, you validate the Fish Map but dismisses half it's value?
That seems illogical.

I believe that the map is 100% authentic, that is shows the location of several mines and at least one trove.
We have enough circumstantial evidence now to make/support the argument.

Honestly, I am a little skeptical that 1872 would take precedent over federal law.

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by coazon de oro » Thu May 25, 2017 8:30 pm

Howdy Choto,

I don't see where I dismiss half of the Peralta/Fish map. I only mentioned the mine at the Eastern base of Weaver's Needle because many claim there is no quartz anywhere there, so there should be no gold. In reality gold is where you find it, just like the LDM, "No miner will find my mine", Jacob Waltz.

One has to look at the original map, not the copies. The copies have more wording than the original, this is just their interpretaion. To begin with, the word is "derrotero" which means direction. Cerrotero is not even a word, so you can see how unreliable the copies are. I can't see how a small d could be mistaken for a c. Rio Salado is the only thing in print, that is why it is different.

I will admit that I can't make out all the words, but it is still my opinion that it is the real deal. I fail to see the word tesoro anywhere, so please enlighten me with the circumstantial evidence that supports a trove.

Travis Tumlinson did not understand Spanish, his interpretaion of the misspelled word "coazon" was box, which is actually "cajon". Many others followed his wild imagination. Jack, and Bernice McGee also followed Travis way of thinking, so did Robert Tumlinson. In fact you can find Robert's handwriting on the "Peralta Tesora Mappa" which was actually his creation. Is this where your curcumstantial evidence is coming from, or is it from ebay trinkets?

The Mining Law of 1872 is a Federal law, which declared all public domain lands open to mineral entry regardless of where they were. You can not have one law saying one thing, and another saying something else. It is for this reason that prospecting is allowed in Wilderness Areas. Look into the Bureau of Land Management of Arizona, and you will find that The Mining Law of 1872 governs mining. All the Peralta mines are working mines that pre-existed the Wilderness Act, and all other laws for that matter. If uncovered in a licit way, they are not "new" discoveries, the discovery date should go back to the time they were first discovered. At least this is my understanding.

Homar

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by Choto » Sat May 27, 2017 4:46 am

Homar,
Either way, I hope that you are correct about 1872.

There is a map in Glover's book that I believe is related to the PeraltaFish Map but receives almost no attention. It seems to describe something other than mines. If the PFmap is authentic, this map is as well. I believe that it shows the location of the Peralta cache, like a detailed supplementary map. The map itself (it's history) is something of a mystery.

And the idea of a cache should not surprise anyone. Clay's story states that there was a surplus of ore on the expedition of 53'-54', ore that could not be pack out. It was cached, the site marked, maps made, but due to circumstance, the Peraltas never returned to recover it. Enter Frank Fish.
Anyway, the idea is entirely reasonable.

Unfortunately, if a cache exists, the ownership (rights) remains unclear to me.

I don't spend much time thinking about the Tumlinsons or the stone maps and don't see any direct connection. This story is about the Peraltas, Frank Fish, the Legends of Adventure group, and those who followed.

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by coazon de oro » Sun May 28, 2017 4:16 pm

Howdy Choto,

I have not seen Dr. Glover's book, or map, so I have no idea whether it may be real or not.

The only story that I have read by Mr. Clay Worst is "The Salazar Survey", which was shown by Mr. Garry Cundiff. Unless there if another version, I fail to see where it refers to any surplus ore that was cached anywhere. I do know that Mr. Worst is holding on to his knowledge of certain markings at the end of the trail, so you may have a more complete story than the one I read.

If there is ore cached out of the mine, you would need a treasure trove permit to establish any rights to it, even if ore is not considered treasure. If it is stored inside the mine, I think it would be part of the mine, and still publc domain.

Homar

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by cuzzinjack » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:08 pm

Hello Choto,

This thread seems to have gotten mired in the historical mud. Please check out a boots-on-the-ground investigation and conclusion at:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... =1&t=71917

cuzzinjack

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Re: The Peralta-Fish Map

Post by WixMoran » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:06 am

Was just curious if Matthew Roberts still used this forum...had some questions about his insight into Frank Fish.
Matthew Roberts wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:19 am
Frank Fish Home, Museum Amador, Ca..jpg

Cubfan 64,

The stone building on the Right in this photo was Frank Fish's Museum in Amador, California. Fish lived in a small trailer in back of the Museum and in 1965 he was found dead (gunshot wound) in the office of the Museum.

Al Reser was the man who owned the original Peralta-Fish Map. He purchased it from Fish's good friend Bill Schafer after both Frank Fish and Lake Erie Schafer had passed away. Al Reser eventually donated the original Peralta-Fish Map to the Superstition Mountain Historical Society in Tempe/Apache Junction Az.

Now here's the part of the story most people don't know about Frank Fish and the Peralta-Fish Map.

Al Reser knew Frank Fish long before Fish ever became friends with Bill and Lake Erie Schafer. Al lived in Anaheim California and worked for Ford Motor Company in Torrance. Frank Fish lived and ran a gold and treasure store and museum in Costa Mesa, Ca. just a few miles south of Al's place in Anaheim. Al being interested in gold and treasure stories was a regular at Fish's place.

As far back as the 1940's Al saw the Peralta-Fish Map and heard the story of how Frank Fish had acquired that map in Mexico sometime around 1933.

Frank Fish was a strange sort of man and would sometimes tell a story then the story would change. Fish told Al that he was a descendant of the Peralta family of old Mexico and that is how he acquired the Peralta Map. Years later he told people the map originated with another man, Pedro Francisco Peralta of Los Angeles. Finally Fish told Al that in the 1930’s Erwin Ruth had given him the name of a Peralta living at Mexico City and Fish traveled there and after long negotiations acquired the map from the Peralta. Al never knew which story was the right one but he knew Fish had the map and Al believed it was authentic. It should be noted Al saw this map long before anyone tried to “enhance” it and ruined the coloring of the map.

The question has always been, is the Peralta-Fish map one of the same maps Adolph Ruth had with him in 1931 when he was found dead in the Superstition Mountains? Al tried searching for the Peralta-Fish treasure before the Schafer’s ever became friends with Frank Fish. Fish told Al things about the map that might help him find the treasure but Al was busy with work and his family and had little time to devote to trips to Arizona and the Superstitions.

Later on when Al retired from Ford and his wife had passed away, Al packed up and moved to Apache Junction, Az. One of his first searches in the Superstitions was to look for the Peralta-Fish treasure. He never found it but he believed the map was authentic none the less.

Al told me this story and showed me the Peralta-Fish map while visiting at my ranch north of New River one day. Al said he never believed Frank Fish killed himself and even though many of Fish’s personal belongings went missing after his death, Al retained many notes and photos of Fish and his work that he compiled dating back to the early 1940’s.

Matthew Roberts

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