Rattlesnake id

roadrunner_girl
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Rattlesnake id

Post by roadrunner_girl »

Hello folks,

Been reading the forum here for many years but never had occasion to post yet. (Sure appreciate the knowledge passed along here!)

Yesterday we saw a large rattlesnake on our property in the Pioneertown, CA area. We have only seen speckled rattlesnakes there so far (9 years). This snake looked a bit different having diamondlike shapes and appearing to be more orangey than pink (as our Speckleds are). The girth on it seemed a bit larger than normal as well.

Since we sit on the hip of the San Bernardino mtns. and are in a bit of a transition zone, we may be getting some overlap in species? Possibly Red Diamond?

Our property is at 4500 ft. and is hilly, boulders, gravelly, Joshua Tree, pinyon pine, juniper woodland.

We know there are Mojave rattlers in flatter, creosote bush scrub but our place is not flat, but hilly and has no creosote bushes.

We got some great photos--here is the link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/madannedra ... 310065492/

I know Reptilist and Jerry Feldner are the resident experts so advice from them would be very much appreciated but certainly anyone chime in on your thoughts.

Hoping it is not a Mojave for obvious reasons, though we realize all rattlers should be treated with caution. We never kill our snakes (don't want rodent problems) but if it was a Mojave we might consider trying to capture and relocate it.

Thanks for any and all help!
Jerry Feldner
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Re: Rattlesnake id

Post by Jerry Feldner »

I know you did your best to get good pics of the rattler but it would have helped a lot in IDing it had you taken better pics of the HEAD and TAIL of the snake. Now, Reds (Crotalus ruber) do not live that far north. They are found on the other (south) side of the San Bernardinos.
The snake has a black and white banded tail. The only snake that has a b&w banded tail in the Mojave is (you guessed it) the Mojave Rattler (C. s. scutulatus) and that's what that is. See>>> http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/p ... latus.html

People have some strange ideas about Mojaves - just because they picked up the erroneous common name of "Mojave Green," people think they have to be green. Take a look at the pics in the url and you will see that, while some have a green cast, they do come in many colors, just like specks. I know a place not far from P-town where the Mojaves are a gorgeous pink. Here in AZ you don't see many greenish snakes until you get all the way across the state in Cochise County. Around Phoenix, Mojaves are a nondescript tan or brown.


Now, I'd like to know what makes you think you must "relocate" the snake if it's a Mojave. Is it because you heard they are feisty? The last Mojave I had, I kept for five years and he never rattled while in his cage nor did he ever "behave badly." If you plan to relocate the snake, you may want to read the following studies:

http://webspinners.com/coloherp/cb-news ... ation.html

http://www.opa.medicine.arizona.edu/new ... tigers.htm

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/want ... san-lumber

I was looking for two other studies with which I am familiar. One has to do with rattlers in a NC State park. The other deals with two species found in and around Montezuma Castle National Monument here in AZ. (BTW, the author of that study is Erika Nowak, one of the authors of the first paper I posted.) One of these studies states that rattlesnakes are "terrirtorial." Not true in the sense that elk or Bighorn Sheep are territorial. The mammals will actually fight over a bit of ground (and mating rights). Rattlers inhabit a home range, perhaps a square mile or two and they do not fight over a piece of it. A home range may be home to a number of males. Matt Goode's study in Saguaro Nat'l Park (outside Tucson, AZ) has some great data and shows different home ranges in different years for an identified (transmitter implanted) snake. The point I am trying to make is that people tend to take snakes a good distance away from capture point - 3 to 5 miles - before releasing it. at that distance, you may as well just kill the snake because it will die anyway. Studies show that snakes relocated a great distance from "home" do not do well. They search for scent cues to "home" and do not eat, drink or mate, nor do they seek shelter. At "home," they know where to find food, shelter and water and are comfortable there. Studies also indicate that, once caught at a specific location, a rattler will not return to the point of capture.
So, relocate your Mojave but don't take it too far away or it will die.

I did want to make a comment on the idea you have of Mojave habitat. Yes, they tend to be more commonly encountered in the flats but they are not restricted to that geological characteristic. They live almost everywhere within their range, geologically speaking. Read the first url I posted for an idea of which habitats harbor Mojaves.
Last edited by Jerry Feldner on Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sandman
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Re: Rattlesnake id

Post by Sandman »

Thanks Jerry,

We live in the same range to the west of RR Girl and have seen similar snakes. The black/white banding near the tail is a distinctive marking. We have discovered, if you leave them alone they will generally go away. The information you provided about territorial habits seems to support our observations. They are hunters and seem to like places where they can find K rats and Ground squirrles like in the rocks and wood piles. Many of us wo live in the rural areas understand that snakes are natural rodent control although I do have a neighbor who kills every one he finds. The one pictured by RR Girl looks pretty fat. Nice picture!
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reptilist
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Re: Rattlesnake id

Post by reptilist »

roadrunner_girl
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Re: Rattlesnake id

Post by roadrunner_girl »

Thanks so much for your detailed replies, everyone. Lots of valuable information there. If I see this individual again I will try to get a photo of its head and tail. I am able to zoom in on the photos as the original image is 12megapixels. It does appear that its tail is banded. The photo of the head is not really clear--a side view would have been better.

Jerry, the only reason I would relocate the snake is because of the added toxicity (neurotoxin) with a Mojave. I am cautious about all rattlesnakes but this really scares me. I will read the links you provided before moving the snake (I was only thinking of 1/2 mile or so) and of course will do it cautiously :)

Reptilist, I did look at the photos of the Speckled and one photo does look pretty close to the one in my photo. It seems pretty difficult to id 100% without better photos.
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reptilist
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Re: Rattlesnake id

Post by reptilist »

The best thing to do would be to get a good look at the scales on top of it's head....

Notice the big scales on top of the Mohave:

Image

Now look at the small, almost granular scales on top of this Speckled Rattlesnake:

Image
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Apache Devil
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Re: Rattlesnake id

Post by Apache Devil »

That looks like a red diamond to me guys.
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reptilist
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Re: Rattlesnake id

Post by reptilist »

darn it.
You could be right too!
Jerry Feldner
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No, he can't>>>be right. Pioneertown is way, way out of the

Post by Jerry Feldner »

be right. Pioneertown is way, way out of the range of the Red Diamond rattler. It's a great distance from the Coachella Valley which is the farthest north they are found. See >>>http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/p ... ruber.html

I'm sticking with my previous choice.
Goldseeker
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Re: Rattlesnake id

Post by Goldseeker »

whatever it is, it looks nasty :o
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