The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

spiny
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Re: The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

Post by spiny »

I would oppose a ban on hunting, as this activity has been important in conserving habitat that supports a broad array of wildlife, and it is not a significant threat to the desert tortoise. Nevertheless, when it comes to claims that lead ammo is not harmful to wildlife, I've been around long enough to recall all the claims years ago that lead shot was not toxic to waterfowl or the eagles that fed on unrecovered ducks. There is ample scientific evidence that it was, and it remains a threat to the condor. For some peer reviewed research, see the links below:

http://www.peregrinefund.org/Lead_confe ... edings.htm

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2193/0 ... 2.0.CO%3B2

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2193/2 ... lCode=wild

Dan
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Re: The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

Post by Dan »

Well, spiny old buddy, I hate to say it, but there is research that suggests just the opposite, and that the lead isotopes found in birds is significantly different than that found in ammunition. So, who is right? Those who claim it's close enough, or those wo claim it's not?

Lead does naturally occur in soils and plants, and it's very possible that it ends up in most levels of the food chain in some concentration. There also may be some species which tend to absorb the lead rather than passing it through, and are afflicted with an odd accumulation of lead in their systems that other species don't seem to have a problem with. These species are likely toast no matter what happens to ammunition regulations.

Personally, I believe that if environmental groups feel that strongly about it, then they should simply fund the real independent research themselves, with the millions of dollars they are donated every year from the hundreds of foundations that support their work, and that it should be conducted under the watchful eye of the federal government, whose policies will ultimately become binding on the American people, and who owe a duty of attaining a high level certainty and integrity to those same American people before implementing such restrictions and regulations. Implementing such bans based simply on the say-so of some otherwise out of work biologist isn't cutting it.

Further, we've seen what so-called "peer-reviewed science" has led us to in the global warming scam, haven't we? This is what happens when science becomes politicized. It becomes less than believable.

spiny
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Re: The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

Post by spiny »

Well, Dan, old buddy, I'd think that when lead bullet fragments are continually found in the crops of lead poisoned condors, that would establish a pretty good causal relationship. But go ahead and believe whatever makes you feel good.

Mike
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Re: The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

Post by Mike »

...eagles that fed on unrecovered ducks.

How often do you think that might happen?

...I'd think that when lead bullet fragments are continually found in the crops of lead poisoned condors...
Bullet fragnents? I ain't swallowing that one spiny and neither are Condors! Maybe you ment lead shot rather than bullet fragments eh?

Your statement also implies that the condors, with your so called "lead bullet fragments" in their crops, died from lead poisoning. I would bet a beer that ain't so!

Additionally I would think the use of the word "continually" in your statement, sends your claim a bit over the top.

Finally, if I wanted honest information on ANYTHING, I would most certainly NOT look to PEER!

spiny
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Re: The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

Post by spiny »

I've seen it personally, Mike, but don't let the facts get in the way of what you want to believe. By the way, I didn't get any info from PEER.

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Allen
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Re: The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

Post by Allen »

spiny wrote:I've seen it personally, Mike, but don't let the facts get in the way of what you want to believe. By the way, I didn't get any info from PEER.
Mike, this nutcase is just like, Sal. There is no substance to what he says and absolutely nothing to back it up except a lot of hot air.

spiny
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Re: The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

Post by spiny »

I think Homer Simpson said it best: "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true!"

MMM
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Re: The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

Post by MMM »

I have been reading all this hype about lead in bullets and quite frankly, it is no surprise to me enviros are screaming bloody heck. More control, less land use. What amazes me is one simple, yet seemingly ignored fact. How much lead is actually out in the wilds from bullets? Oh to be concerned about areas where a lot of shooting takes place (READ MILITARY BASES) you do have concernes about lead in the eco system. But the rest of the desert? Come on, be real. I have metal deceted and to be frank, finsing a bullet is usually very rare. Also lead occurs naturly in soils. I will say, in Condor areas where the birds do eat carrion, by all means restrict bullets of lead. But the arguement made to ban all bullets is not logical.

Mike

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castle
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Re: The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

Post by castle »

MMM wrote: But the arguement made to ban all bullets is not logical.

Mike
Well people like spiny, sal, the anti-gunners/hunter, and envir-nazis aren't logical. They rather take a bit of info and create a crisis out of it. It's all in their agenda to close down, shut dow, ban, and control.

Mike
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Re: The Mojave Desert tortoise population is losing ground

Post by Mike »

spiny wrote:
I've seen it personally, Mike, but don't let the facts get in the way of what you want to believe.
Ok I'll bite, what have you seen personally spiny?

Hey everybody, listen up. This is going to be good!

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