What happened?

Brew
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Re: What happened?

Post by Brew »

Sal wrote: The riding areas at JB were designated in 1986. Riders have been ignoring the route network and only now is BLM making an effort to force compliance.
The route network has not been there since 1986. The BLM only began marking the route network in the last couple of years.
I do have an issue with the "buying" of big parcels of land by organizations
does that apply to the hundreds of thousands of acres bought up by taxpayers for OHV play areas?
Hundreds of thousands of acres HAVE NOT been bought by taxpayers for OHV play areas. Lands purchased for OHV use do not exclude ANYONE from using them.
Hikers, rock climbers, flower smellers, bird watchers don't bother others or ruin the areas with their activities.
I've heard of some complaints against the rock climbers.
golf courses and ski areas, and I really hate country clubs and car races
All of these areas are on private land and built with legal permits. Contrast that with the growing blight of off-road impacts.
Wrong again! Most ski areas are on leased US Forest lands. Many of the golf courses are on public lands.....usually city property.
buy it all up so nobody can trespass
there are laws against trespass, but to enforce you need to identify the culprit--impossible for riders on green sticker vehicles wearing masks.
The land owners must also be responsible and post their lands.

Brew

Sandman
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Re: What happened?

Post by Sandman »

Brew wrote:
The land owners must also be responsible and post their lands.

Brew
In my extensive travels of the remote areas of the west, I carry maps and generally know where I am exploring. I take care to do the responsible thing and avoid trespass whether the land is posted or not. It is the responsibility of each and every operator of a motor vehicle to do so in a responsible way that causes minimal impact to the surrounding landscape and follow the law. In this day and age, onboard GPS systems are becoming increasingly popular. While out in the desert recently, I ran into a group of dual sport riders who were exploring locations of military crash sites. Their navigation was fine tuned and these guys knew exactly where they were and where they were going.

All too often, irresponsible riders will claim ignorance as an excuse for trespass. It is the actions of these riders who care nothing about respecting the property of others or the public land use regulations and trail designations that are causing the problems. Be it on private or public lands, it is the responsibility of the rider to know where they are and to ride responsibly.

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castle
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Re: What happened?

Post by castle »

SAL ---DELETED---. You've been waiting for someone like Like Mrs Oroblanco, who has some pertenant, constructive comments, just just so you could ambush them haven't you. ---DELETED---.

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castle
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Re: What happened?

Post by castle »

Sandman wrote:
Brew wrote:
The land owners must also be responsible and post their lands.

Brew
In my extensive travels of the remote areas of the west, I carry maps and generally know where I am exploring. I take care to do the responsible thing and avoid trespass whether the land is posted or not. It is the responsibility of each and every operator of a motor vehicle to do so in a responsible way that causes minimal impact to the surrounding landscape and follow the law. In this day and age, onboard GPS systems are becoming increasingly popular. While out in the desert recently, I ran into a group of dual sport riders who were exploring locations of military crash sites. Their navigation was fine tuned and these guys knew exactly where they were and where they were going.


All too often, irresponsible riders will claim ignorance as an excuse for trespass. It is the actions of these riders who care nothing about respecting the property of others or the public land use regulations and trail designations that are causing the problems. Be it on private or public lands, it is the responsibility of the rider to know where they are and to ride responsibly.

Wrong again ---deleted---. If you own land you don't want others on, POST and FENCE it. It's not a riders responsibility to make a trip to the court house and cruse through land records. That's what he would have to do to make sure someone who gave them permission to ride last time hasn't sold the land to someone who dosen't want it trespassed on.

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Pharo
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Re: What happened?

Post by Pharo »

Sandman wrote:
In my extensive travels of the remote areas of the west, I carry maps and generally know where I am exploring.

I In this day and age, onboard GPS systems are becoming increasingly popular. While out in the desert recently, I ran into a group of dual sport riders who were exploring locations of military crash sites. Their navigation was fine tuned and these guys knew exactly where they were and where they were going.

All too often, irresponsible riders will claim ignorance as an excuse for trespass.
Well let me tell you about my most recent trip (this weekend). I was on the Nevada side of Lake Mohave south of Searchlight but north of Cottonwood Cove. I was looking for dirt roads into LMNRA that I had been told about. I had my GPS (Magellan Maestro 4700) updated just a few days before with the latest maps. I also had my map of LMNRA with me.

Needless to say I found more than 1 road, I found 3 of them. I decided to explorer them all. The first one came to a nice spot on the lake just after a marker stating I was now on LMNRA land. I put a way point on my GPS and went back to check the other roads.

As I got back to the fork in the road I saw another truck just off the road so I stopped to see if the old guy driving needed any help. He said he was OK but did ask me for the cords on my GPS. When I asked him why, he pulled out a map (very old, like Smithsonian worthy) to show me the spot he was looking for. Has it turned out he was less than a 1/4 mile from the spot he was looking for. He said he owns some land out here, owned it for years but rarely gets out to it much now a days. I then asked if it was OK to drive down the road or if the road was on his land. He said it was OK as he would never even think about blocking off access to the lake even if he could.

Now, my GPS was up to date and my map was only 2 years old but nether show his property line. The only way I would have ever known there is private property out there was off his old map. And even that was only because he had (or somebody had) drawn a box on the map where his land was.

So will you please explain to me how my GPS will keep me from trespassing?

Thanks in advance,

PBiZ

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Allen
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Re: What happened?

Post by Allen »

castle wrote:SAL ---DELETED---. You've been waiting for someone like Like Mrs Oroblanco, who has some pertenant, constructive comments, just just so you could ambush them haven't you. ---DELETED---.

I wonder what you wrote that got deleted by someone with better judgment than us. My entire post was deleted. LOL! I guess Sal, didn't like it.
It's been nice and quiet around here and I think Sal, has been waiting for an opportunity to spew his extreme anti OHV opinions. Mrs. "O" provided him with a perfect opportunity. Perhaps they've made Sal, a Moderator and we don't know it yet??
Castle, you can email me at d.e.a.1@hotmail.com if you ever want to talk off line.

Moderator Note: Com'on Guys! You should be able to debate the issues, without calling each other names, and slinging personal insults at each other. These are direct violations of the Terms of Use agreement, that could get you permanently removed form the site. Some things ARE better discussed in private e-mail, than they are in an open forum

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Mrs.Oroblanco
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Re: What happened?

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco »

Hello again,

Actually, I do not have one single problem with taxpayers buying up land - what I do have an issue with is a combination of things that I have seen happen over the many years we have been going to the desert. (and we did live in the desert of California, also).

Here's my issues - and I see this everywhere - Joe Blow buys a one acre lot, in the middle of nowhere, and then expects to live there all alone - even though he drives to his house by a road, I have seen them try to stop me from driving to where I'm going, I have seen them put chains across the public roads, and I have seen them put up No trespassing signs, but have no problem, what-so-ever of trespassing on my property.

I have an issue with environmental groups buying up public land - because then the public is subject to their rules on land that our tax dollars paid for. Our states, California included, are selling us out. Public land is becoming only public to certain people.

You mentioned the car races - well, in an area where we cannot take an electric wheel chair, in the Mojave desert, there is a major car race every year - but that is ok, because they have the money. It has become a rich man's desert.

You are right - the desert was there before dirt bikes, but the dirt bikes were there before your house, too. And it is public land - not your (or my) private retreat - public land is supposed to be for the enjoyment of the public - all the public, separate from the land you put a home on.

But, the government will charge you money if they find out you are taking pictures that you might put out in public, for a buck or two - they will throw miners off legal mining claims - they change the names of roads, and call them "routes" and make people NOT be able to be there.

I can understand the issue of people who willfully destroy the desert or any other property - but, let's be open and honest, three hours after a bike or an SUV goes down the road, a wind picks up and you have no clue to its ever having been there. There is a difference.

Believe me, when I say - this is as passionate a subject for me as almost anything in my life - the taking away of public land for public use. I have even been a part of the congressional fight against S:21 - The California Desert Protection Act.
It took up more than 2 years of my life and time fighting that bill - in fact, I was threatened, by the government, that I was lobbying illegally, because I wasn't registered as a lobby group - that was actually funny, they found out I was a private lobby group of one!!!!

If you want to debate the ins and outs of the desert and its use and restrictions - I've got no problem with that!!! It hits one of my biggest pet peeves. (along with public toilets that are so tall my feet can't hit the floor when I sit) :o :lol: , and I can debate it forever!!!

Some other things that were said - I think bikers need to know where they are - just like metal detectorists should know who's land they are detecting. Just because it is public land, doesn't mean it is open for detecting. I cannot tell you how many obnoxious people we have come across - and we have also come across many, many nice people out in the desert (a couple of them lost and panicked, but still nice). Bikers and 4 wheelers need to know where they are going - you wouldn't drive down route 10 if you wanted to go down route 30 - you don't drive across someone's land when you are
wanting to drive across public land. And, we have posted and fenced, and posted, and fenced, and posted and fenced, and someone cuts the wire, pulls the stakes and shoots the signs. So - its a two-way street.

Also, they started closing routes(really, roads) in 1993 - I have pictures of the very first one they put up, and I watched them do it. But, like I said before, they really closed roads, not routes - and then called them routes, because it was against the Wilderness Act to close roads - they were just supposed to sign-off areas that were not used for regular travel, but, they did what they wanted to. (you can thank Feinstein). It might interest all here to know that our government, and the state of California got to make the call - Sierra Club got to draw the maps, make the wilderness and close the roads. Anyone who doesn't believe that - I have Sierra Club's original, colored in, plans for it. (Feinstein sent it to me).
And, believe me - they are not done.

So, bottom line - like I said before - we have to learn to live together - everyone should be able to recreate how they like to - on public land, or land set aside for the purpose. People who destroy things should be prosecuted individually - you don't throw the baby out with the bath water - its the same arguement that goes on about guns - they want to take them all away because some nut shoots up a school - its the nut, or the criminal that needs the prosecuting - take them out of the equation - and live - and let live.

By the way - I do actually enjoy debating a subject that means a lot to me, and having a place to do it.

Beth (Mrs. Oroblanco)

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castle
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Re: What happened?

Post by castle »

Very well said Mrs. O. It seems we have another common sence approach person here. Glad to have you. Don't worry, I'll get over my time out for unkind comments.

Sal
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Re: What happened?

Post by Sal »

three hours after a bike or an SUV goes down the road, a wind picks up and you have no clue to its ever having been there. There is a difference.
if that were the case I would have no quarrel with riders. But in the desert, OHV tracks can last 20 years or more before they are naturally grown over. Sadly, no OHV routes are ever allowed to go unridden (riders continually ride them even if marked "closed")so we could actually see a route disappear.

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Pharo
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Re: What happened?

Post by Pharo »

Pharo wrote:
Sandman wrote:
I In this day and age, onboard GPS systems are becoming increasingly popular. While out in the desert recently,

All too often, irresponsible riders will claim ignorance as an excuse for trespass.

So will you please explain to me how my GPS will keep me from trespassing?
Well, still no reply so I guess I'll ask, don't you think "responsiblity" works both ways? I mean on the part of the rider as well as the land owner? If it's not at least posted how is one to know it's private? My GPS doesn't tell me unless you know of one that does. If you do, please post a link.

Later,

PBiZ

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