Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

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Re: Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

Post by MMM » Sun May 23, 2010 11:03 am

The fact that CBD is the group doing the actual law suite says a lot. sandman do you favor the tatics that CBD follows? If the people around you created the legl action then it would be by you and for you. CBD really dose not represent you, but are following their own drum beat of denying access to the desert for moterized use. This is NOT responisble recreation that they seek. It is the continuing desire to restrict, deny and frobid use of public lands by the mechinized dersert user. sandman where do you stand on CBD?

Mike

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Re: Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Sun May 23, 2010 9:53 pm

Sandman,

I would never make the assumption you (or anyone else) is lying.

What I AM saying, is that you are talking about a single area, and the problem goes way beyond the folks around your home. It is country-wide. It is every single place where there is supposed public land.

"Responsible use" is merely a synonym for "do the things that I like and agree with". Many environmental groups want to stop horseback riding on public land. I have a friend who spends many, many, many hours, fighting with the BLM and states all across the country and environmental groups - because hikers to not want to step in horse manure. They don't consider horseback riding "responsible use" - they even want people to collect horse manure in plastic bags.

So, I will stand, firmly, behind what I said. This debate is as old as the hills. Both sides lie about what they really want.
The environmentalists that are on the "side" of those folks who do not want to see off-road vehicles - are NOT on their side at all - they are on the side of "put everything under glass" and people can "look" at the land - oh - except them - they get to make money taking paying friends and allies on trips to the very places that they do not want us on --- and
make NO MISTAKE - they don't want YOU there, either.

Have you ever read about the "horizon to horizon corridor"? If you haven't, I'm not surprised. If you have, I'm surprised to still side with them. Horizon to horizon, is something that they are striving to have in place by 2020. (started around 1995). It means that everyplace that is protected should be protected from horizon to horizon. I went to at least dozens of meetings, etc., over this out here. If you have private land, too bad - if you can see it from the protected lands, than you will (if they get their way) get to still live there, but once it starts to fall down, or decay, or need work, permits will
not allow it - its like the Wild & Scenic Rivers crap. Is your dock falling down? Well, if it's on a Wild & Scenic river designated waterway, you can not put a new structure up.

Start looking at the fine print - and start looking at what they REALLY want to do. Today it is OHV's - tomorrow, it will
be the deck on your home. And, if you think I'm being fatalistic, or gone WAY overboard, start looking towards the east, and see what has already happened. If it can happen in the heavily populated areas, just think of what they can accomplish where the population is thin, and the environmental groups have huge memberships.

Beth (Mrs.O)

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Re: Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

Post by MMM » Mon May 24, 2010 5:03 pm

First, I want to thank you Mrs. O for posting in here. I enjoy reading your insightfull posts. I have not heared of the "horizon to horizon corridor" project and can find nothing on it. I have read a lot about the "Wildlands Project" which is a true nighmare in the works. You know the funny thing is I am a complete advocate of responsible and responsible OHV or mechinized use of public lands. I fully supprot strict measures to curb illegal riding and actions. But I also fully believe that there is enough land already set aside as protected and we really don't need more. To me ballanced use is just that, BALLANCED. Places where you can go and never see a wheeled track or the sound of a motor. But there are also plenty of places the can be enjoyd useing a OHV or jepp or mountain bike. There really is roome, at least for now, for all of us out there.

Mike

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Re: Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Mon May 24, 2010 10:09 pm

If you give me a little time, I will dig out the papers on the "horizon to horizon" project and scan them and post them for
one and all.

See - here is where I agree - I am for responsible environmental actions, too. I grew up back east where coal was king, and the rivers were disgusting, septics still ran into our rivers, the night sky was blue for as far as you could see (no exaggerations, either), from underground coal fires. And, if you had any sense of smell, it was destoyed by the smell of wet coal gas and sulphur smell. We were used to it. Since then, entire towns have had to be evacuated, roads would
disappear into huge canyons that used to be coal tunnels, that were burning. I'm sure most people have heard of Centralia, Pennsylvania.

Now, you not only have fish in the creeks - you can sometimes SEE them, the water is so much better. Thousands of birch trees grow in areas that were one big fire when I was a kid. (birch trees love coal ash, for some reason). Reasonable mining, reasonable recreation, reasonable building, reasonable manufacturing - reasonable environmental standards - I am for all of that. I like my water clean, I like my air clear, I like to look at trees, and I like to garden in good soil. And I like
our public lands. I like to prospect, I like to mine, I like to have open spaces that I can go to.

But - that is NOT what some of the organizations want. And they use the general population and lie to them. They SAY they want to save the whales - what they want, is to keep everybody away from the water. They SAY they want to save the environment - what they want, is to take people out of the equation. They SAY they want to save the desert, what they want is for everybody to stay out. Their members honestly think they are saving fishing, and the trees, and the desert and the environment - but they are merely pawns in the political tug-of-war for control of everything.

These are the same people who stop you from walking into the exact same area where Vice-President Cheney was hunting when he had the accident. (it is a totally protected area - you and I could not hunt there, or drive there, or horseback ride there). It is politics.

When I was going to all those "Horizon to Horizon" initiative meetings (it was in Wyoming) one of the meetings was in the local BLM office. Someone came around and took pictures of all our license plates - everyone at the meeting - and later on, they wrote to us, telling us, basically, that the way to settle this was to compromise, because Wyoming's grassland was only 2% protected by them (Nature's Conservancy), and we did not understand the issue. (I did understand - it meant, at the time, that my restaurant and bar could stay, but we would not be able to make any improvements unless we got specific permission from Nature's Conservancy. I will include that when I get the paperwork out and scan it. There is over 200 documents, at least, so - it will take awhile. What I think the best way to do it is to put them on a spot online so everyone can read them, and I will post a link here.

It is a similar deal with what happened in California - first the wilderness study areas, then the wilderness, and then S21, which transferred Federal Land to the state, and also withdrew many many acres from mining - and then they took the ranchers out - well, what they did was take away the water rights. Cattle die without water, so, like many other things, they did it by the back door. I got the certified letter 2 days after the meeting. We still have property in California, and so do 2 friends of mine - one of whom got arrested by the state because he was on his land and the state doesn't exactly know where there is private land and where there is state and federal land. During this time, they started closing down roads - they called them "routes" even though they were roads - real roads. Then the conflicts started. People who used the roads, now call routes, and now closed, got ticked off and went there anyway. The fight has been going ever since.

There has GOT to be a better way. Fine the violators - take away their licenses - give them jail time, or public service cleaning up the public land - but, don't squeeze the taxpayers out and then expect them to sit still and give up their hobbies. The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that there are members of places like Nature's Conservancy who spend lots of money, and truly think they are doing the right things for the countryside, and the environment - but the politically active managers USE these folks good intentions. They spend millions of dollars showing their members and others how crappy the average vacationer is. I mean - do you know they are still using a 25 year old ad about beating seals to promote MORE control for themselves over oceanic waters. And people believe it is still happening. If you want to find out what is really being said, and planned and thought of, join some of these organizations - the literature they send you will open your eyes.

I honestly believe that it is the same people who USE the land that are in the best position to take care of it. A rancher would soon go out of business if he didn't take care of his land and his livestock. I think off road vehicle folks could be law-abiding participants - as long as they are treated equally. But, they have to be treated as who they are - tax-paying citizens who help pay for these public lands (and half the time get charged for using an area, on top of our tax money), just like the folks who want to hike, prospect, fish, mine, detect, drive, and be part of our environment in one way or another.

I have been a crusader, to be honest - since the day, at one of the big, big BLM and Nature's Conservancy meetings told me that they don't tell us what to do with our land, we shouldn't try to tell them what to do with their land. I had to address that fact - and I stood in front of many,many people, and told them that they did not own one single acre - that every acre belonged to the American Public, and they were merely stewards of the American Pulic lands. (it almost started a riot, because it seems, that, the BLM, at least around here, doesn't feel that way, but the public certainly does.)

There is definitely a difference between advocating bad behavior and advocating that we all play nice - together.

Forgive the long-winded response, please.

Beth (Mrs. O)

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Re: Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Mon May 24, 2010 10:36 pm

This is just a "snippet" of some of the Nature's Conservancy site"


We support the use of conservation easements as a cost-effective and highly
efficient conservation tool on private lands. From Natures Conservancy Site.


ARIZONA AT A GLANCE
fastest growing state in the nation
42,193
acres under easement with
The Nature Conservancy
43,447
acres of private land under easements with other local or regional land trusts
ABOUT CONSERVATION EASEMENTS
Conservation easements are one of the
most powerful, effective tools available for the conservation of private lands.




“We’ve always felt strongly about keeping the land open to the public. And I am confident that these actions will be much appreciated by future generations as…Arizonans will need places to simply view nature as it was before the imprint of huge human populations.” -Paul Babbitt, shareholder


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Re: Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

Post by Sandman » Tue May 25, 2010 7:59 am

What I am saying here is we are in need of more educational efforts like the one put out by the friends of Jawbone. Maybe we can get Ed and the friends of CORVA to keep pumping the message and apply some peer pressure that irresponsible OHV use affects everybody.

In this area, an ill concieved and implemented WEMO plan is causing major damage to both private and public lands. The court agrees.

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Re: Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

Post by Mrs.Oroblanco » Tue May 25, 2010 4:26 pm

Sandman,

I agree with the educational aspect, also. Something you will find - is that saying the court agrees, is actually extremely confrontational. (ie: look at the Mojave Cross situation), so, that will win no arguments, to the folks who care about it.
(either way a court decides).

But, education - definitely - but, it has to be REAL education - not preaching. Maybe something like having to take a class in how the desert replenishes itself - and how long that takes - before you issue a OHV permit, or something to that effect?

Nobody wants to lose their right to recreate in the ways they see fit - not off-roaders, not hikers, not treasure hunters - not anyone. So, that means they also do not want to lose the land that they use to recreate on. Prospectors and miners are well aware of things like reclamation - but, I'm not sure the guy who takes a vacation out to the desert once a year would. Many join clubs just to have a place to go (like the gold prospecting clubs give part-timers a place to go).

So, maybe a system to make those folks aware of what they need to do to KEEP their recreation lands intact, for their use, should be part of the equation.

See - there are SO many better ideas out there than - GO AWAY. :P

Beth (Mrs.O)

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Re: Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

Post by Sandman » Tue May 25, 2010 11:59 pm

OHV manufacturers typically show their machines ripping through a creek bed, wheels spinning and churning the the muddy earth into a primordial oozing mess that coats every surface. This type of advertising sends out a message that this is what someone who buys and rides their vehicle is supposed to do with it.

Riparian lands in the desert and mountains are extremely vulnerable to damage whenever flatlander Joe and Bob six pack take their buggy, quad or 4x4 for a spin. I'm sure you've seen em after their weekend of fun in their mud spattered vehicles. In the desert, life centers around springs, seeps and creek beds. The agencies who manage our public lands in the desert often build some serious barriers to try and protect the riparian habitat from damage, only to come back a couple of weeks later to find them ripped out and vandalized because "Joe and Bob" are all ticked off that someone "locked them out" of their favorite mud bog. After all, they just spent some major $$$ on their toys and it's their god given right to do what they dang well please with them aint it?

The message needs to start at the top in my opinion. These manufactures know the effects of riding full tilt boogie through the creek bed and yet they are reluctant to move away from his style of advertising because it may impact the bottom line .

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Re: Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

Post by MMM » Wed May 26, 2010 5:00 pm

sandman I agree totaly that the adds you see showing OHV use is out of line with reality. Having said that, I again ask you your thoughts of the CBD and its on going efforts to stop OHV use in the desert.

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Re: Friends of Jawbone Canyon educational video

Post by Sandman » Wed May 26, 2010 11:12 pm

Mmmike, your question is off topic.

In a world where we are bombarded by visual media, be it television, computer, movies, u tube, ect......the influence of media to project a message makes it a useful tool to be utilized. I think we are all in agreement that there is a problem percentage of OHV users who cast a negative shadow upon all OHV users. Unfortunatly, it's my opinion that the manufacturers themselves often project a message on how not to ride on public lands.

The video produced by the Friends of Jawbone Canyon is a step in the right direction. For those of us who choose to walk the path and educate other riders, the uphill trail is long and bumpy. Some major OHV advocacy groups are now realizing the importance of getting the message about responsible OHV use out to the masses. I support these efforts 100%.

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