Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Sal
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Sal » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:22 pm

Mike--it sounds to me like you're looking for a reason not to support the large plate idea.

If you are truly sincere in wanting to help curb the waste of illegal riding--you will become active in getting the license plate issue into the public eye. Anything less is just more talk and the status quo remains the same.

Dan
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Dan » Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:25 am

Sal, your friends in "the family" have lied to us too many times. No one trusts you demagogues any longer. You blew it. You overstepped your own believability. The only people who buy into your nonsense are those easily fooled, and prone to believe nonsense in the first place. Your solutions always involve more Wilderness and denial of access, regardless of what you state is the "problem". We understand. You want Wilderness designations and lockouts for anything not already claimed for another permanent non-recreational use. That way, your chosen form of recreation is the only one allowed. We get it.

Sal
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Sal » Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:40 am

the line is drawn in the sand. Riders refuse to take action to save their recreation. I have come across this mentality before in my dealings with riders and their advocates.

Who is the loser? The general public loses both the resources damaged by illegal riders and then loses conscientious motorized access to other lands that are then closed to protect them from OHV abuse.

Thanks pal! thanks for taking the time to spell out your agenda here on this blog for all the world to see and understand your intentions and denials.

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historik951
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by historik951 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:10 am

Sal- Why is it up to only the riders to promote the large plate idea??? Wouldn't be great if the environmentalist AND the riders worked together to get this done??? What kind of message would that send ??? How cool would it be if you used your influences to help this along and it would go a long way to repairing the damage that has been done in the past.... The only TRUE answer is working together.....

H

Sal
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Sal » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:16 am

I am working on the large plate issue and have been for a few years now. To recapitulate--if you support this idea, write letters to your State Senator and Assemblyperson. If you belong to an advocacy group--write to them also.

Dan
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Dan » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:14 am

Sal wrote:I am working on the large plate issue and have been for a few years now. To recapitulate--if you support this idea, write letters to your State Senator and Assemblyperson. If you belong to an advocacy group--write to them also.
In order to work together, it requires trust. Environmental extremists running most of the coalitions, organizations, alliances, and foundations have already proven beyond any doubt that they are not the least bit trustworthy when it comes to this issue. Without trust, there is no possible way to "work together". They poisoned the well already. Done deal. Then they come back here and claim that it's "riders and their advocates" who aren't willing to "work together". If it wasn't so dishonest, it would be funny.

Sorry, guys. We just aren't willing to trust any more. We've already done that and have been burned too many times.

Sal
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Sal » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:28 am

Dan wrote:In order to work together, it requires trust
What you are asking the general public to do is to trust OHV'ers with our public lands. They have proven themselves unworthy of that trust, which is why visible plates are necessary.

Dan
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Dan » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:58 am

The difference, Sal, is that OHV advocates' leadership is not condoning illegal riding. But environmental groups' leadership IS most assuredly advocating an end to the public making the decisions on what will be legal on its own lands. Environmental group leadership wants those decisions in just a very few hands of people they can heavily influence on policy matters, rather than in the hands of the public, where it belongs.

Environmentalism: Ideas so good they have to be shoved down our throats.

Sal
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Sal » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:21 pm

Dan wrote:OHV advocates' leadership is not condoning illegal riding
I read comments by OHV advocates all the time--they say "when there is nowhere left to ride--there's EVERYWHERE to ride."

Dan himself condones illegal riding by the way he exclaims that the "closed unless signed open" rules creates illegal riding.
Dan wrote:Environmental group leadership wants those decisions in just a very few hands of people
Where did you get this factoid? Environmental advocates WANT public comment and the public's opinion to be counted because they know that the overwhelming majority of Americans favor sustainable use of our public lands, protection of resources and responsible stewardship for future generations.

Speaking of shoving, OHV's are doing the shoving of their noxious effects on the land, wildlife and personal freedoms of all other users of public lands. Of course, as Dan pointed out, they are not prohibited from using your and my private lands either. Even where local jurisdictions have specifically required written permission to ride on private lands, Dan and his allies say that the law is unconstitutional and will fight it. They are happy to abide by the older law which stated, "If there's no sign forbidding it, it's legal to ride there".. so all riders have to do is pull out the sign....that's Dan's "conservative" thinking for ya!

Dan
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Dan » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:53 pm

Don't be obtuse, Sal.

Less than 2% of California landmass has any legal riding, and most of that is now illegal because of the "closed unless signed open" rule.

Advocating a change in the law is not condoning illegal behavior. Otherwise, Sal, you'd be automatically condoning environmental extremists' behavior of dumping paint remover on cars they don't like, burning homes they don't like, destroying university testing labs they don't like, booby trapping trails they don't like, and falsifying data in an attempt to influence policy. Sort of makes illegal riding seem somewhat trivial, doesn't it?

Environmental advocates file lawsuits each and every time things don't go your way legislatively and/or bureaucratically. Your solutions simply make no sense to anyone but environmental extremists, Sal. Thankfully, that's a very small portion of the population. Pretty much by definition, that's extremist.

It is your opinion that OHVs do permanent damage to the land that is offensive to extremists. We get that. But it doesn't follow that the public is on your side. The public is on board with the warm and fuzzy brochures created to push a particular program. But when they find out the reality of what the programs encompass, and what liberties they advocate destroying, the public runs from the environmental movement as fast as their little feet will carry them. To clarify, the ordinances directly in contradiction to the Penal Code in California are in violation of the Supremacy Clause. Only the courts can decide if they are unconstitutional. We'll see, won't we? Nervous, Sal?

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